Inscriptions in Navajas, for Chris and who else

[fernando]

Hi, may i come in?

A little part missing in the first phrase:

Originally Posted by freebooter

The second line reads "Soy defensora de mi dueno, basta el _____ ______", " i am defender of my owner, (it's) enough that he______ ______".

Also i follow Chris on his "suffising" sugestion


The third line is " O le ____ __ Grava __ Labra" ....something like "it burdens working to him" ??? with a few words missing.
aka Freebooter

I wouldn't bet on this assumption before trying to decipher the rest of the words in this phrase. I don't think is an afirmative sentence, but an optional one, ilke either such or such. The "O" in the beginning could well mean "or".

As for the viper atribution, Chris, i have a varied perspective. In Spain, like in Portugal, there are three diferent terms ( maybe all over ). Cobra, used for generically mentionning the reptile (at least in Portugal) Serpiente=Serpente, used often in mystic situations, and Vibora, necessarily a poisonous snake.
Cobra is only atributed to the reptile, Serpente can be used to conotate an evil person, and Vibora to conotate a poisonous ( speech ) person.
So in the case of Navajas, i think the "Vibora" sense is that of a lethal snake = Cobra venenosa.
Forget if i am talking nonsense.
All the best

[fernando]

Hi Gav
Your "pride and joy" is indeed a beautyfull navaja.
Certainly an exhibition piece, as Chris well puts it ( he is the expert ).
The inumerous phrases engraved on it, instead of the usual one or two, also bring it to the same conclusion.
The waved brass plates at the forte and the notching at the blade back are not often seen in Navajas ... what would you say, Chris?
Eventualy you can find a blue print of these efects in plug ( hunting ) bayonets from the Andalucia area ... if that helps to guess your navaja original region ?!
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

As for the viper atribution, Chris, i have a varied perspective. In Spain, like in Portugal, there are three diferent terms ( maybe all over ). Cobra, used for generically mentionning the reptile (at least in Portugal) Serpiente=Serpente, used often in mystic situations, and Vibora, necessarily a poisonous snake.
Cobra is only atributed to the reptile, Serpente can be used to conotate an evil person, and Vibora to conotate a poisonous ( speech ) person.
So in the case of Navajas, i think the "Vibora" sense is that of a lethal snake = Cobra venenosa.
Forget if i am talking nonsense.
All the best

You are absolutely right and I stand corrected. By way of a lame excuse, what I was stating was considered normal usage of the word in South American Spanish and I forgot about Iberia! Actally, even there it was a misnomer because I looked it up in my ancient Argentinean dictionary! "Cobra" is a misnomer also used in South America interchangeably with "serpiente", "culebra" and "vibora".

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi David,

I tend to agree with Fernando in that you haven't missed out on much. It appears to be a low grade 20th century, possibly French navaja in a sorry state of disrepair.

I have my own share of such junk knives, which I buy to complete the story of the navaja. As such they have their place in a comprehensive collection, but as stand alones they have little value.

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks guys, just a few random points and extras.

I will continue to work out the missing texts on the large blade and see what I work out. I can definitely see Moorish influences shine through with the decoration on this knife, hopefully I can source several more and have these framed up too.
Thanks Fernando, you were absolutely right about the word "Soy" it is partially hidden by the brass on the blade.

With regards to the framed collection and Chris's reply,

The top one is definitely Spanish from what Chris has pointed out, it has a square locking hole with a single notch, amazing craftsmanship when examined closely. The piecing together of this piece is absolutely precision engineering.

The Alvero Garcia blade appears to be 20th century with the further input from Chris as the blade is super smooth, but it is heavily etched and I can see light file marks on the non etched edges??????

The Navaja without a locking mechanism is identical in everyway to this ebay link below. This may help further identify it. The little cresent for the thumb nail is present as is the symbol shown above the initials, though it lacks a couple of those strokes either side and the circle in the middle is clearer on mine. I have heard of this referred to as a "sun burst crown". Every engraving on the end caps are identical too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=017

As for the junker with the fake mother of pearl grips, it also has a gorgeous file finished locking spring much like the large exhibition piece has on the blade, it also has a pipe tamper to the back of it, both the back spring and blade are reasonable carbon steel and the blade is very sharp, the fittings appear to be nickel wrapped around another type of steel on the end caps.

I am still not 100% convinced about the Toledo blade being very modern, there is nothing stamped about this navaja(to my eyes), it is all, what I believe, engraved, etched or chiselled, the lines are so crisp and delicate in many places. I do remember Laura from knifecollection some years ago put this around circa 1900-1910 as she too was watching the auction at the time and wanted to add it to her stock.

I have found several of these books you speak of Chris but have yet to purchase them.

Thanks heaps everyone, I'll get to adding some of my other little treasures in other posts, like my ivory and silver Dha with an Burmese made English clip point bowie blade, silver Tibetan dagger, sword canes, Chinese swords, Persian axes, dress swords and other stuff I have squirreled away here. It is great to be able to share these wonderful things with like minded people and learn more about what we all love.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gav,

Originally Posted by freebooter

I am still not 100% convinced about the Toledo blade being very modern, there is nothing stamped about this navaja(to my eyes), it is all, what I believe, engraved, etched or chiselled, the lines are so crisp and delicate in many places. I do remember Laura from knifecollection some years ago put this around circa 1900-1910 as she too was watching the auction at the time and wanted to add it to her stock.

OK. we here a obviously Spanish style non functional souvenir grade navaja manufactured some time ago, but we don't know when. Apart from the ubiquitous "TOLEDO" there is nothing else to identify it.

In such cases we can only do the following:

a) Carefully examine the piece and try and detect the technology used in its manufacture, such as blanking of the blade, the mode of construction as for example cast or the earlier riveted sheet handle frame, indications of machining and die forgings, mechanical polishing, electroplating, type of engraving used, materials employed and any other evidence of advanced manufacturing. All this is then to be compared with periods of known cutlery output from Spain.

b) Try to estimate the probable age of the piece from condition and type of paint used to fill up the engraving. A powerful clue is whether the gold effect was obtained with powdered pigment paint or a thin coat of translucent "gold" laquer applied over a silvery electro plated surface. The way to detect this is to examine the area in question under a low power microscope (20x-50x) and with a scalpel gently scratch away at the surface. If this technology was used, then after removal of the coat of lacquer a shiny silver surface will be revealed

Now, we do know that

a) Up to around 60s, cutlery in Spain was a cottage industry, using only the most rudimentary tools and basic materials. After that, it modernized;

b) There was flood of cheap souvenir daggers, and swords in the 60s and 70s with cast metal handles and plated blades using the above "faux" gold plating, all etch engraved and painted with enamels. As far as I can ascertain, the sequence of paint deposition was as follows:

1st coat: Silvery electro plating
2nd coat: Translucent "gold"lacquer
3d coat : Colored enamel, the "gold" lacquer serving as an undercoat/primer.

I have not seen any earlier Spanish decorative cutlery that utilized this "faux" gold finish.

c) We also do know that cast metal navaja handles became widespread sometime after around 1960. This how most of the modern imitation junk navajas are made. The only way to get a "real" navaja, built by traditional means (Spanish "artesanal") these days is to have one custom made. If still producing, then the navajas of Exposito are exempted from these remarks.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks again Chris, your insight is invaluable.

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to thank Fernando, Chris and Freebooter for providing such valuable insight here on these most esoteric and intriguing weapons!! This thread has developed into a most comprehensive resource for understanding more on the navaja, especially for those of us not well versed in Spanish and not having access to the references noted here.
This kind of attention to detail and specific discussion are exactly what make this forum outstanding in learning the history and development of so many weapon forms!

Thanks so much guys for such informative posts !

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Jim,
I thank your thanking me, but my participation was residual .
Chris is undoubtfully the guy for the podium
I truly apreciate his virtue to examine things ( Navajas for the case ) to the ultimate detail.
Fernando