The Kingdom.

[David]

Well, i feel like a junior clerk most of the time, but when i grow up i think i would probably most like to be a...(looks around, drops voice...) an IA....
That is since the job of God is already taken...

[drdavid]

At this stage I think I qualify as a uni student with a holiday job helping the clearance kids
DrD

[Rick]

Personally speaking , I'm special needs .
Gotta go catch the short bus now ..

[A. G. Maisey]

Gentlemen, with the possible exception of David, I think that perhaps you may be missing the point I was trying to make.

As serious students and collectors of the keris, is it fitting that we devote so much of our discussion time to the classification of keris, and to the affixation of names to various design components?

If the study of the keris is limited to the compilation of an encyclopaedic list of motifs and names, what exactly has that list of words produced as an addition to knowledge?

Those of you who are well acquainted with me will have heard me railing against the "name game" on occasion.

Why?

Why am I so out of step with the bulk of collectors of keris---or anything else, for that matter?

Surely the naming and classification of those things we collect is at the very heart of our interest. Is it not?

Yes, of course it is. If we wish to retain the status of junior clerks forever:- classify it, give it a name, give it an origin, give it a collection number, record it, file it.

I ask you:- is that serious study of an object that is at the very heart of an entire culture?

However, if we wish to learn something about what it is that we have an interest in, if we wish to understand the nature of that which we have an interest in, then we need to extend our study into all of those areas of knowledge that can add to our knowledge of the thing in which we have an interest. If we do not wish to learn, then we might just as well collect postage stamps. Or better yet, Shrek memorabilia.

We have chosen to collect and to study an object that is perhaps the most complex cultural icon in existence.

Something that is worthy of the most intense study, research and mental effort that the human mind can bring to bear on it.

But if we review the content of posts to our discussion group, how often do we come across evidence that we are thinking beyond the mere classification of something?

I think that possibly only one time during the period I have taken an interest in this discussion group have I seen evidence that somebody was really thinking outside the square. I've forgotten the name of the person involved, and I think it was prior to the Warung opening up for business, a thinker put forth the proposition that the ron dha really represented the Hindu "OM". Brilliant thought process. At the moment I do not agree with him, but the thought process that produced this idea is exactly what we need to see more of.

The names of various design motifs, be they forms of the naga, be they dapurs, be they pamors, are only of value if accompanied by attribution of source and time, and even then they are only descriptors. In some of the older forms these descriptors may be able to be subjected to analysis in attempts to extract origin and possible original meaning of the name applied, but for the most part, even that approach could be like chasing rainbows.

The choice is ours:- accumulate objects that we do not understand, or try to gain some understanding of the forces that have produced an icon that can incorporate the highest societal, religious, and artistic ideals of a culture.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gentlemen, with the possible exception of David, I think that perhaps you may be missing the point I was trying to make.

As serious students and collectors of the keris, is it fitting that we devote so much of our discussion time to the classification of keris, and to the affixation of names to various design components?

If the study of the keris is limited to the compilation of an encyclopaedic list of motifs and names, what exactly has that list of words produced as an addition to knowledge?

Those of you who are well acquainted with me will have heard me railing against the "name game" on occasion.

Why?

Why am I so out of step with the bulk of collectors of keris---or anything else, for that matter?

Surely the naming and classification of those things we collect is at the very heart of our interest. Is it not?

Yes, of course it is. If we wish to retain the status of junior clerks forever:- classify it, give it a name, give it an origin, give it a collection number, record it, file it.

I ask you:- is that serious study of an object that is at the very heart of an entire culture?

However, if we wish to learn something about what it is that we have an interest in, if we wish to understand the nature of that which we have an interest in, then we need to extend our study into all of those areas of knowledge that can add to our knowledge of the thing in which we have an interest. If we do not wish to learn, then we might just as well collect postage stamps. Or better yet, Shrek memorabilia.

We have chosen to collect and to study an object that is perhaps the most complex cultural icon in existence.

Something that is worthy of the most intense study, research and mental effort that the human mind can bring to bear on it.

But if we review the content of posts to our discussion group, how often do we come across evidence that we are thinking beyond the mere classification of something?

I think that possibly only one time during the period I have taken an interest in this discussion group have I seen evidence that somebody was really thinking outside the square. I've forgotten the name of the person involved, and I think it was prior to the Warung opening up for business, a thinker put forth the proposition that the ron dha really represented the Hindu "OM". Brilliant thought process. At the moment I do not agree with him, but the thought process that produced this idea is exactly what we need to see more of.

The names of various design motifs, be they forms of the naga, be they dapurs, be they pamors, are only of value if accompanied by attribution of source and time, and even then they are only descriptors. In some of the older forms these descriptors may be able to be subjected to analysis in attempts to extract origin and possible original meaning of the name applied, but for the most part, even that approach could be like chasing rainbows.

The choice is ours:- accumulate objects that we do not understand, or try to gain some understanding of the forces that have produced an icon that can incorporate the highest societal, religious, and artistic ideals of a culture.

It is always a pleasure to read your threat Alan. For me as a javanese, collecting kerises is like an efford to realize that " I am A Javanese".
though in my 27 years old I still consider my self as a clearance kid. Trying to understand about dapur, pamor, warangka, etc....and after a while I will consider my self as a junior clerk..and move on to the next level.

I was once forgoten to be a Javanese, since my family doesn't seem to teach me about javanese tradition, all I understand is, I was born in Solo central Java and my parents are a common civilian came from Demak Central Java.

One day my grandfaher died, and he inheritaged a spear and a keris to his sons and doughters, then the story told me that one of my uncle try to sell the keris to anyone interrested on it. Since he doesn't know anything about keris, then he found him self confuse with no direction to make. from demak to other city and then end up in Solo to my mother. My mom gave him 20.000 rupiah as a mahar and told my uncle to go home. about the spear, my mom just bring it back from Demak.

I was never ever tuoch the keris until I was 25 years old. When I first time tuoch it, unshealth it, smell it's sandallwood aroma. looked at the detail of the keris and spear...then I found that I'm not a complete Javanese without having a keris, further I'm not a complete Javanese without knowing about keris. the metal, the technique of keris making, the tradition, ang the filosofy within the keris.

I found that old javanese people I used to talk with were very polite, honest, low profile . They knew exactly where to put them self in any situation. those wise words came out of their mouth came to my ears as melody and just went through my brain and my heart. I was so amazed.

You've been living in Solo for a very long time Alan. You know exactly what I mean. I miss the old Java that you told me about. when the road are still empty, when the market not so crouwded. when the people are not obsessed with materiality.

Then now I feel more better, after I bought my first and second kerises then a bought the book ' ensiklopedia keris' and ' keris antara mistik dan nalar'
then I still look for other book to read and other keris to learn about,l collect another keris and sword...I found my self happy with it.

thanks guys ...

[BluErf]

Which is why esteemed members like youself, Alan, and pak Ganjawulung, Boedhi Adhitya and others whose names may have slipped my increasingly forgetful mind, are especially valuable to and honoured in this forum.

[David]

Alan, the forumite that you refer to with the OM/ron dha theory is Pusaka and he does still post here from time to time. Though we were sometimes at odds theoretically, i would like to see more of him. I agree that the thought process was indeed brilliant, though i also did not exactly agree with his conclusions. Still, this is exactly the type of thinhking that i would like to encourage here on the forum. There will always be disagreement in such discussion and frankly i believe that is a good thing, forcing us to think outside the box.
I think we can only go so far as a "show-and-tell" venue and while i like to know names and classification i agree that at the end of the day they really tell us next to nothing about the true nature of the keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferrylaki, it seems to me that times in the past always seem to be better when we remember them.
We tend to give those times a value that maybe they didn't have.

I can remember when I was a kid I could wander around the area where I lived with a rifle dangling from one hand, or slung over my shoulder. I could walk into the local general store and buy an ice cream, or some acid drops with my rifle in my hand. I could walk out of the general store, cross the road, and take a shot at something. Nobody noticed. No Men in Black dropping out of helicopters. No tactical response police. Just dusty roads and a barefoot kid with a .22.

In 1955 I could ride a pushbike along a major highway for 12 hours and when I got where I was going I could announce that I'd counted a hundred or so cars that had passed me during the day.At that time only three people we knew owned motor vehicles.

But in 1950 my father earnt somewhere around the equivalent of $10 per week. There were no refrigerators, we used iceboxes.No washing machines. If your family owned a radio you were doing OK. If you owned a windup gramaphone (record player) you were considered to be fairly well off. Milk was bought in a billycan from a man who brought it to the door. Shoes were for special occasions, and never worn during wet weather. Christmas time and birthdays you got clothes and books. In coinage there were pennies and half-pennies, and they did have value.You sold old newspapers to the butcher for one penny per pound.

I bought my first bicycle at age twelve from money earnt doing jobs for neighbours. Took me about two years to save up for it. It cost twelve pounds, present day coinage, about $24. This was roughly equivalent to two weeks pay for a qualified tradesman.

This was working class Australia circa 1950.It was not some developing country.

If people were not materialistic it was because they did not have anything to be materialistic about. Going to bed warm and with a full belly meant you were doing pretty good. But that did not mean that we did not know the value of money.

I suggest that all memories of the past are distorted by time:- I remember that I could walk around the neighbourhood taking shots at birds and rabbits : I forget that I went barefoot and was invariably and constantly cold in winter.

If you have a longing for Solo during the late 1960's and early 1970's, I suggest that perhaps you might give a little thought to some of the slightly less desireable aspects of life in Indonesia at that time. There were many, and if you think 1998-2000 was bad, have a talk to somebody about the mid 1960's.