keris and spirit

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2007, 02:53 AM

Well David, if you're going to force me to get down into the specifics of meteorites in keris, rather than wander all over the interesting and unstable ground of human perception, I will be as specific as I know how.

I know of only two keris that definitely have meteorite in them.
I know this because I forged the meteorite, and I was present when it was used.

I possess one tombak that according the Javanese parameters used to identify the maker, and the material , contains meteorite, according to those parameters.

I possess one keris that according to those same parameters also probably contains meteorite.

However, I have seen and handled many keris that according to respected Javanese authorities , applying the same parameters but only in respect of material, definitely contain meteorite.

These Javanese authorities know that my tombak, my keris, and the many others to which I refer above contain meteorite. They know it because they have absolute faith in their system and their knowledge.

On the other hand I am of little faith (and will undoubtedly go straight to hell) so I only know of two blades that contain meteorite:- the two I was involved in the manufacture of.

My truth is a little different from the truth of these other people.

My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.

David · 17th May 2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.

You'll get no argument from me there.

Raden Usman Djogja · 22nd May 2007, 10:00 PM

Firstly, according to Keris and spirit, the discussion is focused on the use of meteorite. Is it a legend or not? Is there any impact to the power of keris? Does the "believe" of meteorite use give advantage or disadvantage for keris? I hope the conclusion is decided by each discussant since the aim of discussion is to share and to broaden our knowledge of keris. I do hope we can postpone for a while about "meteorite". There is still a neglected issue: TAYUH.

Secondly, if talking about spirit of Keris (Tosan Aji), we are familiar with the word "Nayuh/Tayuh/ (please translate into English, dear)". Does any kerislover have idea/experience/story about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN? I do hope, from now, we can share and discuss about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN.

Lets begin...

Usman

David · 25th May 2007, 04:41 PM

Usman, i appreciate your enthusiasm for discussion on the spiritual aspects of the keris. It is a topic that is indeed very close to my heart. I would suggest that if you want to have this discussion that you just begin yourself and see what follows. If you wait for others to begin you might have to wait for some time.

Tayuh as i understand it is a practice used in Kejawen to determine things through metaphysical means: past or future, find lost items, determine causes and cures for disease, etc. Please correct me if i am wrong.

The keris can and has been used as a tool to facilate this process. While i believe that tayuh can be discussed in a much larger extent not necessarily specific to keris, i would suggest that for the sake of topic and context that try to focus the discussion on tayuh only as it relates to the keris itself...but perhaps that is not possible.

Raden Usman Djogja · 2nd June 2007, 01:18 PM

David,

yes, tayuh covers many aspects in javanese life. to narrowing the discussion, perhaps, it is better as you mention only as it relates to the keris itself.

usually, in Djogja, I saw people held keris and closed their eyes. Soon after that, they metioned about something related to the origin and the use of keris.

several times, I tested person who was believed having sixth sense. It did not matter whether I believed or not at that time about their abilities. My concern was to test the use of keris to person who did not learn lots about keris.

Then, I brought a keris, e.g period tuban, shape tilam upih, ornamen raja abala raja / top point of mountains. Amazing me, some people could explain the use of keris and "time-made" as Bambang Harsrinuksmo wrote in his ensiklopedia. Then, it raised a question why they could explain the use of keris... even they did not know the name of its pamor. there must be another way to understand keris. Is it NAYUH?

What did I still not believe them, whenever they metioned about the name of ghost lived inside, e.g. kiai tunggul wulung. It was only his imagination becuase, I hoped, if it's true, the name should be either Kiai Magelhaens or Nyai Wilhelmina. Just kidding my dear.

Usman

Lei Shen Dao · 4th June 2007, 12:50 AM

Considering the pamor related powers, I've heard form some people that a specific pamor doesn't allways indicate only one "power".
For example a was wutah keris is best known for his "good luck" quallities to the owner but it could be for "pengayoman" (protection and saccor) also.

There are some cases that I have encounter about keris that were made for more than one "purpose" for their owners (and I am not speaking for keris with two pamors etc, in this case), I know of an old maduranese blade

(very strong and for fighting) made for a warrior with the purpose of "coming back safe from the battle" and it has pamor was wutah. This keris is not for general protection or for protecting the family of the warrior, but it was strictly for the warrior in battle. Maduranese people were mostly poor those days, so a was wutah pamor was ideal for someone to have a good luck in general. But the empu could "issue" another power in the blade not so obvious for other people than the owner himself.

Have you ever heard something similar?

Raden Usman Djogja · 4th June 2007, 01:57 AM

Yes, I heard similiar. Even, a talisman ever said that his keris could use for everything (it sounds generalist). However, imho, one tool uses effectively to solve one problem. But, if it can solve another problem,imho, it is a bonus. For instance, the main function of car is for transportation. A ferrari can function both for transportation and for prestige... or for other purposes.

22nd May 2007, 10:00 PM	#3
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	NAYUH - TAYUH Firstly, according to Keris and spirit, the discussion is focused on the use of meteorite. Is it a legend or not? Is there any impact to the power of keris? Does the "believe" of meteorite use give advantage or disadvantage for keris? I hope the conclusion is decided by each discussant since the aim of discussion is to share and to broaden our knowledge of keris. I do hope we can postpone for a while about "meteorite". There is still a neglected issue: TAYUH. Secondly, if talking about spirit of Keris (Tosan Aji), we are familiar with the word "Nayuh/Tayuh/ (please translate into English, dear)". Does any kerislover have idea/experience/story about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN? I do hope, from now, we can share and discuss about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN. Lets begin... Usman

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

17th May 2007, 02:53 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Well David, if you're going to force me to get down into the specifics of meteorites in keris, rather than wander all over the interesting and unstable ground of human perception, I will be as specific as I know how. I know of only two keris that definitely have meteorite in them. I know this because I forged the meteorite, and I was present when it was used. I possess one tombak that according the Javanese parameters used to identify the maker, and the material , contains meteorite, according to those parameters. I possess one keris that according to those same parameters also probably contains meteorite. However, I have seen and handled many keris that according to respected Javanese authorities , applying the same parameters but only in respect of material, definitely contain meteorite. These Javanese authorities know that my tombak, my keris, and the many others to which I refer above contain meteorite. They know it because they have absolute faith in their system and their knowledge. On the other hand I am of little faith (and will undoubtedly go straight to hell) so I only know of two blades that contain meteorite:- the two I was involved in the manufacture of. My truth is a little different from the truth of these other people. My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.

25th May 2007, 04:41 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Usman, i appreciate your enthusiasm for discussion on the spiritual aspects of the keris. It is a topic that is indeed very close to my heart. I would suggest that if you want to have this discussion that you just begin yourself and see what follows. If you wait for others to begin you might have to wait for some time. Tayuh as i understand it is a practice used in Kejawen to determine things through metaphysical means: past or future, find lost items, determine causes and cures for disease, etc. Please correct me if i am wrong. The keris can and has been used as a tool to facilate this process. While i believe that tayuh can be discussed in a much larger extent not necessarily specific to keris, i would suggest that for the sake of topic and context that try to focus the discussion on tayuh only as it relates to the keris itself...but perhaps that is not possible.

2nd June 2007, 01:18 PM	#5
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	David, yes, tayuh covers many aspects in javanese life. to narrowing the discussion, perhaps, it is better as you mention only as it relates to the keris itself. usually, in Djogja, I saw people held keris and closed their eyes. Soon after that, they metioned about something related to the origin and the use of keris. several times, I tested person who was believed having sixth sense. It did not matter whether I believed or not at that time about their abilities. My concern was to test the use of keris to person who did not learn lots about keris. Then, I brought a keris, e.g period tuban, shape tilam upih, ornamen raja abala raja / top point of mountains. Amazing me, some people could explain the use of keris and "time-made" as Bambang Harsrinuksmo wrote in his ensiklopedia. Then, it raised a question why they could explain the use of keris... even they did not know the name of its pamor. there must be another way to understand keris. Is it NAYUH? What did I still not believe them, whenever they metioned about the name of ghost lived inside, e.g. kiai tunggul wulung. It was only his imagination becuase, I hoped, if it's true, the name should be either Kiai Magelhaens or Nyai Wilhelmina. Just kidding my dear. Usman

4th June 2007, 12:50 AM	#6
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Considering the pamor related powers, I've heard form some people that a specific pamor doesn't allways indicate only one "power". For example a was wutah keris is best known for his "good luck" quallities to the owner but it could be for "pengayoman" (protection and saccor) also. There are some cases that I have encounter about keris that were made for more than one "purpose" for their owners (and I am not speaking for keris with two pamors etc, in this case), I know of an old maduranese blade (very strong and for fighting) made for a warrior with the purpose of "coming back safe from the battle" and it has pamor was wutah. This keris is not for general protection or for protecting the family of the warrior, but it was strictly for the warrior in battle. Maduranese people were mostly poor those days, so a was wutah pamor was ideal for someone to have a good luck in general. But the empu could "issue" another power in the blade not so obvious for other people than the owner himself. Have you ever heard something similar?

4th June 2007, 01:57 AM	#7
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Yes, I heard similiar. Even, a talisman ever said that his keris could use for everything (it sounds generalist). However, imho, one tool uses effectively to solve one problem. But, if it can solve another problem,imho, it is a bonus. For instance, the main function of car is for transportation. A ferrari can function both for transportation and for prestige... or for other purposes.