Beautiful Pendray knife as well as the price!!

Lew · 30th April 2007, 08:37 PM

Ariel

Pendray makes a great knife that's tuff nails and he doesn't charge that much for his work I actually paid very little for an all wootz knife with a 5" blade a few years back. The price sky rockets once the knife falls into one of these purveyor's hands. I have actually over heard them at shows telling other sellers that their prices are to low and to charge more so the big guys don't get under cut so buyer beware

I once traded a damascus camp knife a few months later it showed up on one of these websites where it went for fives times what I paid

go figure

Lew

Mare Rosu · 1st May 2007, 12:30 AM

I also agree on the "garish" as stated by Ariel as well as what Louieblades said. As the blade did not sell also indicates the "Price is not Right".
My comments are on the BLADE not the furniture. I think that Pendray's modern wootz is some of the best around. I am of the opinion that Pendray made just the blade and someone else made the rest.
I did learn something (any day is a good day when I learn anything, and most of my days are very good)

when Ariel stated that it is the cheapest style work. I am always amazed of the collective knowledge of folks on this forum.

ariel · 3rd May 2007, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mare Rosu

I also agree on the "garish" as stated by Ariel as well as what Louieblades said. As the blade did not sell also indicates the "Price is not Right".
My comments are on the BLADE not the furniture. I think that Pendray's modern wootz is some of the best around. I am of the opinion that Pendray made just the blade and someone else made the rest.
I did learn something (any day is a good day when I learn anything, and most of my days are very good)

when Ariel stated that it is the cheapest style work. I am always amazed of the collective knowledge of folks on this forum.

Here is an example of a contemporary, mass-produced Georgian "kindjal" with a filigree job similar to the $8,500 one

http://cgi.ebay.com/GEORGIAN-CAUCASI...QQcmdZViewItem

Lew · 3rd May 2007, 07:28 AM

A.G.

I understand that some knives are more work intensive but the smith who wanted to charge me $1200 for a using knife told me it took him a week to make a simple hunter and he broke it down by the hour in which he charged me for the time it took for the blade to cool after each forging 3 days where the blade just sat in his shop cooling slowly. A good knife smith should be able to make a standard knife in 3-4 days tops. Fancy art knives could take months of work and I can undestand having to pay a high price for one. Al Pendray would charge about $650-$800 for the blade so $8,000 just for the hilt and a scabbard is quite a bit much in IMO. There are good smiths here in the states that make good knives at affordable prices those are the only ones I deal with now when I want a good using blade. We have had this discussion at some seminars on custom knife making and feel that $35 an hour is fair for making knives most of these guys use trip hammers so it is quicker for them to bang out a blade. I think we just about exhausted this subject and there are always pro and cons when dealing with modern custom knives I think this thread should be put to rest at this point before it gets out of hand.

Regards

Lew

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2007, 10:17 AM

Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you.

After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives.

But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

ariel · 3rd May 2007, 01:44 PM

My comments are not meant to insult or belittle modern bladesmiths or other artisans involved in making replicas, modern renditions, old style etc, etc knives and swords.
I am just trying to clarify my purely personal reasons for not collecting them.
For me, history behind the object is of paramount importance. Any modern creation, no matter how technically advanced or artistic, lacks the ingredient of authenticity. These are not for me.
Others admire technical superiority of modern blades and the variety of exotic materials unavailable to old masters. They are the market that decides how much to pay for a contemporary sword.
The pricing for both ends of the spectrum is purely artificial and equally arbitrary. Any knifemaker, like any artisan, can charge whatever price he wishes. The market will decide. After all, what is the rational explanation for $3,000 - $15,000 price tags on Fiegel's Tulwars? $ 100,000 for a Katana? they have no practical contemporary value. Why is Kilij costing on the average twice as much as Shamshir? Who said that a good Khanjarli should command 5 times as much as Bichwa? The price is dictated not by the number of hours or cost of equipment, but by the collectors' "fashion of the day". Moro today, Chechnya tomorrow, Zaza Revishvili in 100 years.

Lew · 3rd May 2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you.

After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives.

But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

A.G.

A new 100lb trip hammer will cost about $5000 but if you do some looking you can buy an older used one for about half.

Lew

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2007, 10:23 PM

Thanks Lew.

And that is only part of the capital investment required to produce a finely crafted custom knife to the standards demanded by today's extremely discerning buyers.

The makers I have known over the years have never achieved anything like the $35 PH that you consider to be reasonable remuneration for this type of work, and they have mostly regarded their investment in the equipment required to produce fine knives to be in the nature of "hobby costs".

However, if somebody wants to make a living from his work, he must factor in his capital costs, depreciation on his plant and equipment, his insurance costs, he must make provision for superannuation, and if he wants a holiday every year, or to cover days when he cannot work because of illness, he must factor allowances for that in too.Then there is the cost of material, and any other unmentioned overheads.

Ultimately the marketplace decides the price of a product. Makers like the fellow who you consider charged you too much for his product may not be able to compete. However, if that maker was doing something for which there was a demand, and which was unique, then possibly he could continue to charge prices which to you appeared to be unreasonable.

My personal position is that modern custom knife work, for the most part leaves me cold. Don't like it at all. I much prefer older pieces, or pieces with an ethnic flavour. For instance, I have a very soft spot for puukos.

But the only way we can truly determine in an objective way if any item is over priced is by analysis of the production of the item concerned.

Of course, the marketplace is not much into objective production analysis, but it is very sensitive to price, so what we usually finish up with is the bare minimum standard that satisfies the requirement.

ariel · 1st May 2007, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ariel

Pendray makes a great knife that's tuff nails and he doesn't charge that much for his work I actually paid very little for an all wootz knife with a 5" blade a few years back. The price sky rockets once the knife falls into one of these purveyor's hands. I have actually over heard them at shows telling other sellers that their prices are to low and to charge more so the big guys don't get under cut so buyer beware

I once traded a damascus camp knife a few months later it showed up on one of these websites where it went for fives times what I paid

go figure

Lew

I am sure that Mr. Pendray's blades are technically superb and can cut regular steel like butter. But... who is going to try it for the price? I fully understand that there are 2 kinds of collectors ( many more in reality!): those who admire technical aspects of the blades and those who seek history and romance behind the sword. I am firmly in the latter camp and that's why I am not thrilled by modern blades no matter how beautiful and technically superb they might be. Give me an oldie, coming from a violent place with a fascinating history any time, something that likely saw a battle and bears scars to prove it and I am happy.
But, to each his preferences...
More from Zaza Revishvili:
http://www.balisongcollector.com/galleryZ.html
http://www.knifeshows.com/revishvili/revishvili.html
The best part, of course, he was a professional football player and is on the list of Best Ever Georgian Football Players
http://www.gff.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG&sec_id=112
This is for our European Forumites: no real American will be impressed by this info anyway. And, just for them: football means soccer

.

Emanuel · 1st May 2007, 04:54 AM

Looks like he's really into garnets and excessive silver filigree

too bad for the blades.

katana · 2nd May 2007, 04:06 PM

It appears that the majority are in agreement....and I have to say IMHO they are right. Fantastic blade...beautiful curves

but the furniture

OTT and too 'fancy'.......not my cup of tea ...at all....especially at that price

You cannot beat the historical .....and dare I say... the romancism of old arms

Newly made edged weapons, are to my mind 'soul less'.........

Gt Obach · 2nd May 2007, 04:36 PM

honestly

when you think about it..... how much did those old blades cost to produce back in ancient times ?.. some the price of a kingdom...

and now you can get them for a song and a dance

not that i'm defending pendray... but he was the pres of the american blade smith assoc. at one time....

G

tsubame1 · 2nd May 2007, 04:49 PM

I wonder what Antonio thinks about this matter...

Andrew · 2nd May 2007, 04:59 PM

Personally, I love the fact modern smiths are continuing the art and traditions of the past. The Pendray blade that started this thread is an excellent example, and one I'd be proud to own.

I, myself, have several modern interpretations of my favorite weapons, and every single one is a work of art. None were inexpensive, and all cost more than I've paid for nearly any antique. I was happy to pay the price for the quality of workmanship in every instance.

Any attempt to compare the "worth" or "value" of antiques to their modern counterparts will fail. You may as well attempt to compare modern hand-crafted furniture to antique furniture.

Antonio Cejunior · 5th May 2007, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

I wonder what Antonio thinks about this matter...

I'm flattered to suddenly see my name here, Marco.
I'm no authority on Russian art and won't claim authority on anything

IMO, however, I do have my personal taste reservations on overly decorated art pieces such as Fabergé Eggs

and cloisonée work

as I think that they belong to a very specific expression that is not to my personal taste.

Presently there is an exhibition at the Museum, called Edictus Ridiculumby a friend, Russian artist Konstantin Bessmertny which is a fantastic example of irony and criticism on the world of Gambling, the Kitsch of getting Pharaohs, Zeus sculptures on a city dominated by Casinos which inevitably do refer to the theatrical and the ridiculous. I wish you guys could see this fantastic exhibition for what it represents. He is a 20th ~21st century Bosch or Breughel.

The entire exhibition is an installation which poses us the question of what is taste and what is the excess of it.

So I will not comment on the piece specifically as it is someone else's work.

Lew · 2nd May 2007, 05:34 PM

[QUOTE=Gt Obach]honestly

when you think about it..... how much did those old blades cost to produce back in ancient times ?.. some the price of a kingdom...

and now you can get them for a song and a dance

Gt

I really don't think they would have cost a kingdom for a dagger maybe a horse or something like that. At the last Timonium seminar there was discussion about how much it would cost to supply a warrior in the Polish army during the 16th or 17th century the cost of a good sword was not that expensive. I have heard that during viking times a good sword was worth the equivalent of $25,000 but that was before good steel was available in larger quantities. It is amazing that when you see some modern makers asking $1200 for a small hunting knife and these guys claim they have some super heat treatment which they claim can make 5,000 cuts in a piece of rope before becoming dull. It's all hype and there are a lot of gullible people out there willing to empty their pockets to buy one. I have been there and done that and that is why I now only collect Antique weapons. Pendray is a great guy and he does not think that one needs to charge an arm and a leg for a knife you can buy a wootz dagger from him for about what you would pay for an antique one. Btw the funniest thing I ever saw was was when at an ABS cutting competition I saw big burly men trying to cut through the wooden dowl of a toilet plunger to prove how good there expensive bowie knives were

you never know when a plunger will jump out from behind a tree and attack you in the woods so you better have one of these knives at your side

Lew

Gt Obach · 2nd May 2007, 05:59 PM

i agree but a horse was still very valuable.. and the daggers must have been aswell

there will alway be hype with blades... just seems to go with the territory..
but the abs does have standards and you should get a decent knife from one of their js or ms smiths....

decent knife for normal situations... excluding fierce plunger attacks, ofcourse

G

ALEX · 2nd May 2007, 06:12 PM

Agree with Lew.
The first expensive modern knife I bought based on "Virtually Undestructible" claims and DVD commercial was a Cold Steel tanto knife. I took it to the jungle and tried to open a coconut. The blade tip snapped without even applying a pressure. Yet you see guys piercing a car hood with it in the commercial. So now I have a $40 good old knife, and it never fails. However, the point is only in QUALITY. It is not fair to compare a bad antique with good modern (and vice versa). Similarly, it is not fair to disrespect the antique artist by comparing the product made with and without ANY modern technology.

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30th April 2007, 08:37 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ariel Pendray makes a great knife that's tuff nails and he doesn't charge that much for his work I actually paid very little for an all wootz knife with a 5" blade a few years back. The price sky rockets once the knife falls into one of these purveyor's hands. I have actually over heard them at shows telling other sellers that their prices are to low and to charge more so the big guys don't get under cut so buyer beware I once traded a damascus camp knife a few months later it showed up on one of these websites where it went for fives times what I paid go figure Lew

1st May 2007, 12:30 AM	#2
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	I also agree on the "garish" as stated by Ariel as well as what Louieblades said. As the blade did not sell also indicates the "Price is not Right". My comments are on the BLADE not the furniture. I think that Pendray's modern wootz is some of the best around. I am of the opinion that Pendray made just the blade and someone else made the rest. I did learn something (any day is a good day when I learn anything, and most of my days are very good) when Ariel stated that it is the cheapest style work. I am always amazed of the collective knowledge of folks on this forum.

3rd May 2007, 07:28 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	A.G. I understand that some knives are more work intensive but the smith who wanted to charge me $1200 for a using knife told me it took him a week to make a simple hunter and he broke it down by the hour in which he charged me for the time it took for the blade to cool after each forging 3 days where the blade just sat in his shop cooling slowly. A good knife smith should be able to make a standard knife in 3-4 days tops. Fancy art knives could take months of work and I can undestand having to pay a high price for one. Al Pendray would charge about $650-$800 for the blade so $8,000 just for the hilt and a scabbard is quite a bit much in IMO. There are good smiths here in the states that make good knives at affordable prices those are the only ones I deal with now when I want a good using blade. We have had this discussion at some seminars on custom knife making and feel that $35 an hour is fair for making knives most of these guys use trip hammers so it is quicker for them to bang out a blade. I think we just about exhausted this subject and there are always pro and cons when dealing with modern custom knives I think this thread should be put to rest at this point before it gets out of hand. Regards Lew

3rd May 2007, 10:17 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you. After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives. But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

3rd May 2007, 01:44 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My comments are not meant to insult or belittle modern bladesmiths or other artisans involved in making replicas, modern renditions, old style etc, etc knives and swords. I am just trying to clarify my purely personal reasons for not collecting them. For me, history behind the object is of paramount importance. Any modern creation, no matter how technically advanced or artistic, lacks the ingredient of authenticity. These are not for me. Others admire technical superiority of modern blades and the variety of exotic materials unavailable to old masters. They are the market that decides how much to pay for a contemporary sword. The pricing for both ends of the spectrum is purely artificial and equally arbitrary. Any knifemaker, like any artisan, can charge whatever price he wishes. The market will decide. After all, what is the rational explanation for $3,000 - $15,000 price tags on Fiegel's Tulwars? $ 100,000 for a Katana? they have no practical contemporary value. Why is Kilij costing on the average twice as much as Shamshir? Who said that a good Khanjarli should command 5 times as much as Bichwa? The price is dictated not by the number of hours or cost of equipment, but by the collectors' "fashion of the day". Moro today, Chechnya tomorrow, Zaza Revishvili in 100 years.

3rd May 2007, 10:23 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thanks Lew. And that is only part of the capital investment required to produce a finely crafted custom knife to the standards demanded by today's extremely discerning buyers. The makers I have known over the years have never achieved anything like the $35 PH that you consider to be reasonable remuneration for this type of work, and they have mostly regarded their investment in the equipment required to produce fine knives to be in the nature of "hobby costs". However, if somebody wants to make a living from his work, he must factor in his capital costs, depreciation on his plant and equipment, his insurance costs, he must make provision for superannuation, and if he wants a holiday every year, or to cover days when he cannot work because of illness, he must factor allowances for that in too.Then there is the cost of material, and any other unmentioned overheads. Ultimately the marketplace decides the price of a product. Makers like the fellow who you consider charged you too much for his product may not be able to compete. However, if that maker was doing something for which there was a demand, and which was unique, then possibly he could continue to charge prices which to you appeared to be unreasonable. My personal position is that modern custom knife work, for the most part leaves me cold. Don't like it at all. I much prefer older pieces, or pieces with an ethnic flavour. For instance, I have a very soft spot for puukos. But the only way we can truly determine in an objective way if any item is over priced is by analysis of the production of the item concerned. Of course, the marketplace is not much into objective production analysis, but it is very sensitive to price, so what we usually finish up with is the bare minimum standard that satisfies the requirement.

1st May 2007, 04:54 AM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Looks like he's really into garnets and excessive silver filigree too bad for the blades.

2nd May 2007, 04:06 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	It appears that the majority are in agreement....and I have to say IMHO they are right. Fantastic blade...beautiful curves but the furniture OTT and too 'fancy'.......not my cup of tea ...at all....especially at that price You cannot beat the historical .....and dare I say... the romancism of old arms Newly made edged weapons, are to my mind 'soul less'.........

2nd May 2007, 04:36 PM	#12
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	honestly when you think about it..... how much did those old blades cost to produce back in ancient times ?.. some the price of a kingdom... and now you can get them for a song and a dance not that i'm defending pendray... but he was the pres of the american blade smith assoc. at one time.... G

2nd May 2007, 04:49 PM	#13
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	I wonder what Antonio thinks about this matter...

2nd May 2007, 04:59 PM	#14
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Personally, I love the fact modern smiths are continuing the art and traditions of the past. The Pendray blade that started this thread is an excellent example, and one I'd be proud to own. I, myself, have several modern interpretations of my favorite weapons, and every single one is a work of art. None were inexpensive, and all cost more than I've paid for nearly any antique. I was happy to pay the price for the quality of workmanship in every instance. Any attempt to compare the "worth" or "value" of antiques to their modern counterparts will fail. You may as well attempt to compare modern hand-crafted furniture to antique furniture.

2nd May 2007, 05:34 PM	#16
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=Gt Obach]honestly when you think about it..... how much did those old blades cost to produce back in ancient times ?.. some the price of a kingdom... and now you can get them for a song and a dance Gt I really don't think they would have cost a kingdom for a dagger maybe a horse or something like that. At the last Timonium seminar there was discussion about how much it would cost to supply a warrior in the Polish army during the 16th or 17th century the cost of a good sword was not that expensive. I have heard that during viking times a good sword was worth the equivalent of $25,000 but that was before good steel was available in larger quantities. It is amazing that when you see some modern makers asking $1200 for a small hunting knife and these guys claim they have some super heat treatment which they claim can make 5,000 cuts in a piece of rope before becoming dull. It's all hype and there are a lot of gullible people out there willing to empty their pockets to buy one. I have been there and done that and that is why I now only collect Antique weapons. Pendray is a great guy and he does not think that one needs to charge an arm and a leg for a knife you can buy a wootz dagger from him for about what you would pay for an antique one. Btw the funniest thing I ever saw was was when at an ABS cutting competition I saw big burly men trying to cut through the wooden dowl of a toilet plunger to prove how good there expensive bowie knives were you never know when a plunger will jump out from behind a tree and attack you in the woods so you better have one of these knives at your side Lew

2nd May 2007, 05:59 PM	#17
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	i agree but a horse was still very valuable.. and the daggers must have been aswell there will alway be hype with blades... just seems to go with the territory.. but the abs does have standards and you should get a decent knife from one of their js or ms smiths.... decent knife for normal situations... excluding fierce plunger attacks, ofcourse G

2nd May 2007, 06:12 PM	#18
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Agree with Lew. The first expensive modern knife I bought based on "Virtually Undestructible" claims and DVD commercial was a Cold Steel tanto knife. I took it to the jungle and tried to open a coconut. The blade tip snapped without even applying a pressure. Yet you see guys piercing a car hood with it in the commercial. So now I have a $40 good old knife, and it never fails. However, the point is only in QUALITY. It is not fair to compare a bad antique with good modern (and vice versa). Similarly, it is not fair to disrespect the antique artist by comparing the product made with and without ANY modern technology.