Moro or Kalimantan ?

kai · 20th February 2007, 10:10 PM

Hello Paolo,

I remember that one - nice catch!

Are there any indications that the elephant's trunk broke off?

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 21st February 2007, 01:26 AM

You know, Kai, that is a good question - missed that one.

paolo · 21st February 2007, 12:43 PM

Hi Kai,
To me the elephant's trunk seems intact.
Regards
Paolo

VVV · 21st February 2007, 02:27 PM

I have noticed that quite often swords that don’t look like "they should" per default gets labelled Borneo. On this forum it has happened several times to especially odd-looking Kampilan and Kris.
Alan Maisey once told me that he has experienced the same regarding unusual-looking Keris. The difference is that the Malays in coastal south Borneo actually produced Keris. But not with such a great variation of strange styles as sometimes is suggested.

As far as I have seen, and read, nobody has actually been able to prove that there really exists a special "Borneo look" to f.i. the Kris and the Kampilan?
None of them are indigenous Borneo weapons and were used by the immigrated, non-Dayak, Malay or Moro tribes.
I have tried to find proof in old sources of Kris being produced in Borneo.
But so far I have only found out that they were imported from mostly the Sulu Sultanate.

If somebody knows a good source as proof that this isn't the cause I would be happy if you could share it?

Michael

Ian · 21st February 2007, 03:10 PM

Michael:

If one includes the Brunei Sultanate as part of Borneo, and indeed part of the "Moro" community, then the answer to your question is yes.

Ian.

VVV · 21st February 2007, 03:27 PM

Ian,

Do you mean that there is proof of a special "Brunei look" in Kris that is different from f.i. the Sulu Kris or Malay Sundang?

Michael

Alam Shah · 22nd February 2007, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

...Do you mean that there is proof of a special "Brunei look" in Kris that is different from f.i. the Sulu Kris or Malay Sundang?
Michael

Afaik, I haven't seen any typical 'Brunei look' for Kris, but based on the one at Asian Civilisation Museum's, it leans more toward Sulu archetype. Some samples could be found in Frey's The Kris (3rd Ed), in the Kris Archives.

Alam Shah · 21st February 2007, 03:31 PM

Afaik, by the middle of the 15th century, during its 'golden age', Brunei had started to expand. The sultanate's control extended over the coastal regions of modern-day Sarawak and Sabah, the Sulu archipelago, and the islands off the northwest tip of Borneo. Keris were manufactured and kris imported from the Sulu regions.

Some useful references:

The Phillippine Islands: Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and their People, their History and Records of the Catholics Missions, as related in contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts. Vol. IV-1576-1582. Eds. Emma Helen Blair and James Alexander Robertson. Cleveland: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 1903.

Ongkili, James P. "Ancient Chinese Trading Links." East Malaysia and Brunei. Ed. Wendy Hutton. Tuttle Publishing, 2001.

Saunders, Graham. A History of Brunei. London and New York: RoutledgeCurzon, 2002.

Wright, Leigh. "Brunei: An Historical Relic." Journal of the Hong Kong Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society. Vol. 17 (1977).

VVV · 21st February 2007, 04:56 PM

Thanks Shahrial for the references.

Obviously I have to study Brunei better instead of focusing on the other Borneo regions.

Do I understand you correct that your listed sources states that it was only Keris that were produced in Brunei and that the Kris were imported from the Sulu archipelago?
Or do they state that Kris also were produced in Brunei?

If so, is there a special Brunei style of Kris with characteristic features?

Michael

21st February 2007, 02:27 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The wild swords from Borneo I have noticed that quite often swords that don’t look like "they should" per default gets labelled Borneo. On this forum it has happened several times to especially odd-looking Kampilan and Kris. Alan Maisey once told me that he has experienced the same regarding unusual-looking Keris. The difference is that the Malays in coastal south Borneo actually produced Keris. But not with such a great variation of strange styles as sometimes is suggested. As far as I have seen, and read, nobody has actually been able to prove that there really exists a special "Borneo look" to f.i. the Kris and the Kampilan? None of them are indigenous Borneo weapons and were used by the immigrated, non-Dayak, Malay or Moro tribes. I have tried to find proof in old sources of Kris being produced in Borneo. But so far I have only found out that they were imported from mostly the Sulu Sultanate. If somebody knows a good source as proof that this isn't the cause I would be happy if you could share it? Michael

21st February 2007, 03:10 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Moro weapons and Brunei Sultanate Michael: If one includes the Brunei Sultanate as part of Borneo, and indeed part of the "Moro" community, then the answer to your question is yes. Ian.

21st February 2007, 03:31 PM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Sources... Afaik, by the middle of the 15th century, during its 'golden age', Brunei had started to expand. The sultanate's control extended over the coastal regions of modern-day Sarawak and Sabah, the Sulu archipelago, and the islands off the northwest tip of Borneo. Keris were manufactured and kris imported from the Sulu regions. Some useful references: The Phillippine Islands: Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and their People, their History and Records of the Catholics Missions, as related in contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts. Vol. IV-1576-1582. Eds. Emma Helen Blair and James Alexander Robertson. Cleveland: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 1903. Ongkili, James P. "Ancient Chinese Trading Links." East Malaysia and Brunei. Ed. Wendy Hutton. Tuttle Publishing, 2001. Saunders, Graham. A History of Brunei. London and New York: RoutledgeCurzon, 2002. Wright, Leigh. "Brunei: An Historical Relic." Journal of the Hong Kong Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society. Vol. 17 (1977). Last edited by Alam Shah; 21st February 2007 at 04:01 PM.

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20th February 2007, 10:10 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Paolo, I remember that one - nice catch! Are there any indications that the elephant's trunk broke off? Regards, Kai

21st February 2007, 01:26 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	You know, Kai, that is a good question - missed that one.

21st February 2007, 12:43 PM	#3
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Hi Kai, To me the elephant's trunk seems intact. Regards Paolo

21st February 2007, 03:27 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ian, Do you mean that there is proof of a special "Brunei look" in Kris that is different from f.i. the Sulu Kris or Malay Sundang? Michael

21st February 2007, 04:56 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Shahrial for the references. Obviously I have to study Brunei better instead of focusing on the other Borneo regions. Do I understand you correct that your listed sources states that it was only Keris that were produced in Brunei and that the Kris were imported from the Sulu archipelago? Or do they state that Kris also were produced in Brunei? If so, is there a special Brunei style of Kris with characteristic features? Michael