My new toys: Ottoman flintlock kubur

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by katana

Your points are well taken...I do have a minor interest in early firearms....the Moghul damascus muskets are beautifully constructed.
But, lets face it, the introduction of 'black powder' saw the gradual decline of the edged weapon and the traditional role of ethnic 'warriors'. An evolutionary change which also changed the 'ethics' of conflict and to a degee.... the mutual honour observed by the combattants.
One of the advantages of firearms ...besides their range....was the fact that ANYONE could quickly learn to use them......a warrior may take years to acquire his fighting skills, the Samurai and many others found this out to their cost.

Were you aware that at one point in time the Catholic Church attempted to ban crossbows as its era's 'weapon of mass destruction'? And most of the Italian city states at one point had bans on the private ownership of wheellock pistols as being the weapons of footpads and assasins? For that matter, it wasn't the crossbow or black powder that spelled the end of the sword in Europe, it was the longbow that started the trend at the Battle of Crecy (http://members.tripod.com/~midgley/crecy.html). For the first time massed missile fire decimated the opposing force before they could close to fight one-on-one. It took five hundred more years for the process to complete itself, but Crecy was the beginning of the end for the sword.

If you haven't seen it, there is a movie starring Sean Connery as the Raisuli, Sharif of the Berbers, etc. In it he triggers a confrontation between the Western superpowers who are all jockeying for possession of Morocco for strategic reason.

At one point Connery delivers a speech about the proper, honorable combat between warriors. First is with swords; sometimes that is not possible and rifles are used. He then laments the introduction of cannon and the machine guns that 'shoot many bullets promiscuously', and mentione the lack of honor in such weapons.

The movie may not be very realisitic on a number of levels, but it does speak to the passing of the Age of the Warrior in the face of the Industrial Revolution. Europe went through it a few centuries earlier, but the process was more gradual. The rest of the world got treated to it in a much more brutal fashion as the Age of Western Imperialism set out to "civilize" everyone else.

Fenris

[Southerner]

Surly if I remember correctly did not the samurai take up firearms in the form of copies of the Portuguese match locks? While other countries advanced to the flint lock the Japanese in there usual manor stuck with what they had and perfected it producing some of the finest (and now most sought after) matchlocks in existence! they still carried their swords though and adapted their code of honor to the new weapon. The samurai had reigned for near 2000 years it was more the protectionism and isolation they had enjoyed for so long finally failing that brought about the eventual decline and adoption of more modern weaponry.

Southerner

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Southerner

Surly if I remember correctly did not the samurai take up firearms in the form of copies of the Portuguese match locks?

Sorry, am i confused or was it the peasants that took up firearms against the samurais and their lords, starting a new era in Japan ?

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by fernando

Sorry, am i confused or was it the peasants that took up firearms against the samurais and their lords, starting a new era in Japan ?

Yes and no; for the first few hundred years, firearms were simply one more weapon of the samurai, used in conjunction with their more traditional weapons. They stayed with the matchlocks and evolved them to a height seen nowhere else, but they were still an elite weapon, paid for and supplied by a lord to his troops.

The peasant levies didn't arise until the industrialization and Westernization of Japan, as glamorized in the Tom Cruise film "The Last Samurai". The families that controlled the Military-Industrial complex wanted to play in the game of empire-building, and the traditional families were trying to hold on to the old ways. The military raised armies out of the peasant class and rammed through laws banning the samurai. In the end Westernization won out. Tragically, you can now find more traditional, heirloom samurai swords in the US than in Japan.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

If you haven't seen it, there is a movie starring Sean Connery as the Raisuli, Sharif of the Berbers, etc. In it he triggers a confrontation between the Western superpowers who are all jockeying for possession of Morocco for strategic reason.

At one point Connery delivers a speech about the proper, honorable combat between warriors. First is with swords; sometimes that is not possible and rifles are used. He then laments the introduction of cannon and the machine guns that 'shoot many bullets promiscuously', and mentione the lack of honor in such weapons.
Fenris

I belive this is the "Wind and the Lion." Always interesting to hear an arab with a Scottish accent. Been a long time since I saw the movie, but I remember it was a lot of fun. Seems like he kidnapped Candice Bergan and fought Teddy Roosevelt's (Brian Kieth) marines.