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14th January 2007, 03:53 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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Hi Spiral,
I have now gained the 'close up' pictures of the Bernard Lavine 'satanic' dagger and am currently researching the symbolism. At first glance the 'extra' designs do look satanic but early 'searches' seem to cast doubt on this. However, I found this hunting sword, which has a figural hilt and ornate scabbard from France and of a similar period to your dagger. The scabbard re-inforces the fact that yours should be viewed as if the church/cathedral is upside down....but I firmly believe...as I stated before...that this symbolism is not 'satanic' but from the underlying theme of Hugo's story. Hunting sword, ca. 1851 French (Paris) Silver, cast, chased, partly gilt; gilt copper; steel; L. (overall, sword in scabbard) 24 3/4 in. (63 cm) hunting sword is a masterpiece of the Gothic Revival style and a virtuoso demonstration of mid-nineteenth-century design and craftsmanship, which were greatly stimulated by the series held of international exhibitions in London and Paris in the 1840s–60s. The grip is fashioned as a deep architectural niche formed of pierced strapwork and foliage, partly gilt, into which is set a figure, cast and chased in the round, of Saint Hubert, patron of the hunt. The cross-shaped guard is inhabited by three dogs, modeled with naturalistic detail, in pursuit of a fox, which cowers at the front of the quillon block; on the end of one quillon an eagle seizes its prey, a crane. From the mid-sixteenth century, the French were unrivaled in the field of highly decorated, deluxe arms. This sword demonstrates that this tradition had not diminished 300 years later. |
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15th January 2007, 04:04 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Hi Katana,
Thanks for the further the photographic example, showing scabbard orientation. Thats a very fancy piece! Good luck with your research & developing suppositions.  Spiral |
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15th January 2007, 08:55 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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Close-up photos of the Florian Satanic dagger reveal further symbolism not previously noticeable.
The pommel end of the hilt shows a bat with the ‘body’ in a heart shape. The sacred heart (if winged) usually has ‘birds’ wings. Could suggest satanic meaning or that the heart of an individual/ Nation has been taken or ‘captured’ by an 'evil' / malignant force The ‘winged hour glass’ signifies the ‘fleetness’ of time…mortality or time running/run out. Again the wings are very bat like, bats are seen as dwellers of the underworld, the abode of the dead. On the cross guard is a face…which has been suggested ( B.L. Forum) as the ‘green man’... a pagan symbol. However I think the features are more Lion –esque, it could be a lioness or young male lion due to the lack of a full main. Alternatively, it could be, the lack of main may be symbolic that the lion has lost its prestige and power. The Lion symbolises strength, loyalty, courage, royalty; power; guardian or fallen hero On the cross guard are coiled Ram’s horns The ram has come to represent male fertility, aggression, and courage. A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance. In history, rams were often symbols of leadership. It is also associated with sacrifice both physical and spiritual. In English, the word trumpet appears many in scripture and many times it is referring to the ram's horn as opposed to the Chatzotzrah, a long, straight trumpet made usually of silver or gold. At Mount Sinai when the Jewish people received the law of Moses, it was accompanied by several miraculous signs (Exodus 19:16) among which was the shrill sound of a shofar that emanated from the sacred mountain. Later on when Joshua led the siege of Jericho, it was the blasts of the shofars (Joshua 6:20) that triggered the collapse of those impregnable walls. Still later, in the time of Gideon, it was a band of only 300 men (Judges 7:15-23) which at God's command scattered the mighty Midianites by smashing pitchers and blowing the shofar. A shofar is a curved horn taken straight from a male sheep commemorating the sacrifice of Isaac when at the last moment God provided a ram that had its horn caught in the thicket. Horns of cows were rejected because these animals were associated with the worship of the Golden Calf by the Children of Israel in the desert, a sin vigorously condemned by Moses. In classical mythology…… In China and India, rams were the steeds of the gods. There and in other countries, rams were associated with unicorns. The nations around Israel portrayed Baal and Rashap with ram's horns. Ea, the pagan god of Destiny and the Ocean was represented by a ram's head set on top of a column. In Egypt, rams were sacred to Amun, Khnum, Osiris, and the cult sites of Elephantine and Mendes. Each year, Amun, the ram-headed creator of the universe, was sacrificed in the form of a ram which was mourned and buried with great honour in a sacred tomb at Thebes. The Celtic fertility god, Cernunnos, had a ram-headed serpent as one of his attributes. The bleating of the ram and the spiral shape of its horns made it a universal symbol of thunder and thunder-gods such as Shango, Thor, and Benin. Interestly there is also this … The golden ratio is present in the horns of the Ram It has also been known for a long time that the Golden Ratio (Golden Section, Golden Mean or Divine Proportion) enables to build a logarithmic spiral easily. Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics. More info here. Or Google ‘Golden Ratio’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio The Freemasons also hold the ‘Golden Ratio’ in high esteem, also here is shown the ‘pentagram’ and its relation to the ‘GR’.. http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...k&ct=clnk&cd=3 The Crossed Swords. And Inverted Torch. As can be seen the two swords are of differing styles…..symbolic of conflict, also posted an American emblem dispaying this configuration with the torch ‘right way’ up (The French were beaten) and therefore, in this case, it means victory. As stated before…..the inverted torch usually means death….a life extinguished. However, if you compare the Tomb symbol with the torch on the scabbard you will notice the flames are rising upward, and as I mentioned before, feel that this symbolises that the life is still ‘smouldering’…not extinguished. The demonic / Satan figure It is mentioned on the B.L. forum that the face is a Fleur de Lys a French National symbol. The three petals of the heraldic design reflect a widespread association with the Holy Trinity, a tradition going back to 14th century France. IMHO I’m not so sure. I am wondering whether it is ‘demonisation’ of the enemy (German stereotype or of an individual) I found an image of a statue of Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, Tiergarten, Berlin. He organised and directed the attack on France in the Franco-Prussian war. I cannot date the statue…..but notice the unusual pose……strange for a Military leader…..crossed arms and legs…(also an unusual pose for Satan) ..facially similar too. Or also quite likely a demonisation of Napoleon III , the ruler that had let his people down, notice the ‘long’ nose and very similar beard/moustache with the ‘Satan’ decoration. To me there are no definitive interpretation of the symbolism that associates this with Satan or that of the turmoil of the Franco-Prussian conflict. The fact that it is dated and was made in Nancy, a city heavily affected by the conflict suggests to me that the Satanic angle is less likely…..but that is only my opinion. Bernard Levine actually states that this ‘satanic’ dagger is the first and only one he has seen that is ‘signed’. He also states that these daggers seem to increase in number after major conflicts that the French have lost i.e. the Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian war, WW1, WW2 etc. Could this be a traditional attitude… to produce a sort of ‘revenge’ dagger full of evil intent to her enemies ??? The last two images are a German Busby, Braunschweig’s Hussar Regiment Nr 17. Whose honors covered both the Napoleonic Wars and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. The sight of the 'skull and crossbones' would be fresh in the minds of the people of Nancy... |
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15th January 2007, 09:39 PM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}
I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would. Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound. The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist. I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me. Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss.. Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light. Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard. Spiral |
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15th January 2007, 11:22 PM
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#5 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,299
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More excellent research Katana!!! Nicely presented and referenced!
 I have found the depth of your research outstanding in detailing the esoteric data on this very unusual topic and find your writing most interesting. I am very much enjoying your well stated observations and especially much of the literary and historical detection you have done. Spiral, It seems we both have similar goals in our writing here, to promote the study of edged weapons and encourage others to share thier often specialized knowledge and material concerning the weapons being discussed. Thereby we all gain by sharing our observations, ideas and as you have emphasized, supported evidence. I would note here that in my original note on the orientation in viewing decorated scabbards, I made it a point to clarify that my suggestion was indeed unsupported, despite the fact that there had been supporting documentation seen, though presently irretrievable. When Wolviex added that he too had seen similar material, in a subsequent post you made what was, in my opinion, a derisive comment suggesting that if we "ever remember it please post it here or PM me if in a few years time", as "neither of you can remember where you saw it". This to me sounds unnecessarily compromising as a comment to any serious weapons researcher. Myself, and as been shown, many others here, are very serious in researching edged weapons. I think the many detailed and well thought out posts here should show that to be a profound fact, which you should find pleasing. Many of us who have been writing here for some time have learned that unfortunately there are many 'snipers' who lurk in our midst, and we make every effort to properly qualify our comments. Despite this, even in 'friendly' discussions, mistakes can be made, and none of us are infallible. I was disappointed with your note that my "...statements and judgement in friendly discussions always sound like pronouncements of authority", which again I would presume to be meant rather derisively. Whenever I write on a topic here, before I write I spend considerable time researching and checking resources so that I can properly reference the material I present. This is simply to consolidate data available on the weapon being discussed, and is done in hopes that others with resources not included might join in by adding the material they have access to. Frankly, I always look forward to new or unknown material being presented! This way, not only me, but the members and readership all gain the benefit of comprehensive material as well as the observations and opinions of all participating. This is a distinct advantage I think, to all, and I rather resent my work being termed any such 'pronouncements of authority'. Having said that, once again I must emphasize that I am glad that you posted your knife and have promoted an extremely fascinating thread. You have noted that you yourself have considerable experience concerning these occult topics, including spending some 6 weeks in current research. Perhaps you might utilize the method noted of sharing some of your research results in order to build on existing material. I think this is considerably more effective than impatience or unkind and unnecessary comments, that I think have resulted from tension that seemingly often occurs in discussions on many very esoteric subjects. I hope we can set aside these unfortunate misunderstandings, and simply return to 'friendly' (and I mean that sincerely ! discussion on edged weapons, which as noted, I think has provided us here with one the most comprehensive threads on these occult and unusual theme daggers that has been compiled in years.All best regards, Jim |
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16th January 2007, 02:23 AM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,658
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Quote:
very disappointed that you did not read my post carefully....surely if anyone states that a FACT is a FACT ... if it should be attacked by differing views the FACTS should 'stand up' ???? I posted MY opinion.....in fact IT is easier to say that this is a Satanic Dagger.....any layman seeing the 'devil' and a few bats will look at this and say 'it must be something to do with the devil'.......Why? because in the 20th century...with Hammer Horror, Dennis Wheatly etc. we are all experts in the iconography of 'Devil worship', every school kid at Halloween knows about bats, devils, inverted crosses, black alter candles, etc. .....are they experts ....no......nor am I....but, the symbolism of the 19c is slightly different....a fact, you perhaps have missed. Like the Swastika, pre WW2 it didn't have the symbolism it has now. Our ancestors had a greater affinity to death itself, life expectancy was less, famine, plague, war and conflict more prevalent. They were more in touch with the notion of death and was more readily discussed than in todays Industrial societies. I never stated that Bernard was wrong, I am saying that this is open to interpretation and I am not totally convinced. If more information became available that further proved that this is indeed a 'satanistic' dagger, then I am 'OPEN' to the facts. You on the otherhand have already decided that this dagger, and your own... is Satanic.I am sorry that your themed dagger is not what you expected, its still a nice piece with some historical kudos. But to attack me with my 'letter opener' seems alittle sad, it is not applicable to this thread and has little to do with my opinion on this dagger. You previously stated that you wanted the truth.......if I am so wrong (which I concede I might be) why act so aggresively....surely my opinion is not so 'dangerous' to cause you upset. Basically, I wanted to see if the symbology of the dagger could be interpreted in a 'different' light..... and I feel that it could be.....whats so wrong with that.....I have used factual interpretations....not fantasy...to support this view. It seems that you have a 'closed' mind on this subject....which would be a shame....knowledge is not 'blind', if a fact is not supported then is it still a FACT???? Oh, by the way I haven't 'just' discovered the Golden Ratio (mean) and nature has been using it a damn sight longer than you or I, or artists or architects..... The point was that the Rams horn could be a reference to a creator or divine plan.....its a possibility. Last edited by katana; 16th January 2007 at 04:14 PM. |
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16th January 2007, 04:00 AM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
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Let's move on, please, gentlemen.
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16th January 2007, 04:22 AM
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#8 | |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,220
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Quote:
Nicely researched material Katana. But even more important than the references you uncovered is the simple understanding (so simple we so often miss it) that the signs and symbols that we identify with one thing today may have once had very different purpose and meaning 100 or more years ago. Real life is not a Hammer horror film starring Christopher Lee. Sometimes it's much worse.
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16th January 2007, 09:45 AM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Come on chaps.
Cheer up, no need to take oneselfs so seriously. A lot of defensivess some of which was based within your owns needs & internal veiws of the world perhaps? It only an old dagger after all, even if the quantity of posts generated in such a short time do show it tpo be rather rather powerfull as well as rare & possiblyunique one. & lets face it we have flogged this horse to death, resurected it , nailed it upside down & you still wish to thrash it again. You percieve my comments in the way you do, I do the same with yours. I have never read so much pompus bluster before that is clearly just to do with faith & belief. sorry I am used to more in depth research reports & concepts from proffesionals & indeed my younger students. I apologise that my expectations were to high. But thankyou to evryone who has helped in whatever way, particularily those who provided sources for further research or photographs of further examples of the correct way  to veiw these 19th century figural pieces in relation to scabbard orientation.If any one ever finds anything concrete as a source about these figurals please email, even if its in 5 years time. I will always be intrested. It would have been intresting to have had a piece where each person put there childhood religious belief system next to there repleys.{whether they accepted it or later rebeled.} If I ever find out anything more concrete I will repost it, my research has only just begun. Glad you all injoyed the band wagon! That so many clearly felt the need to join. Always intresting studying that effect. Many thanks for the emails & offers. But it is a keeper. Spiral |
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16th January 2007, 01:31 PM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
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This is my final request: stop the bickering and move on, please.
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16th January 2007, 01:42 PM
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#11 | |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,220
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Quote:
concrete evidence that you presented in this discussion that supports your case for your dagger. You seem to expect more from us then you do from yourself. I believe it would also be helpful for this conversation if you could accurately define what you actually mean when you use the word "satanic".
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