British pattern Infantry sword....please help

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Paul!
Its great to see you posting here!!!! I have always very much enjoyed your posts and outstanding knowledge on military weapons, and its good to have your input.

Although it has often been contended that military weapons are somewhat outside the scope of 'ethnographic weapons' , I have always considered them extremely pertinant. In so many instances these weapons have become the donors for the blades found on many native weapons, and often have been the influence for developing indiginous forms.

David, nice work on finding the regimental data key to this interesting sword! and thanks very much for sharing this example.

All the best,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

According to the book "Swords of the British Army" this is an infantry officers sword after 1845 when the 1822 and almost identical 1827 patterns with a pipe back blade was replaced with the broad single fuller version. The guard was also made a little more sturdy to compensate the extra weight of the blade but still considered rather light. In 1854 the royal cypher was replaced by the regimental badge.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Although it has often been contended that military weapons are somewhat outside the scope of 'ethnographic weapons' , I have always considered them extremely pertinant. In so many instances these weapons have become the donors for the blades found on many native weapons, and often have been the influence for developing indiginous forms.

All the best,
Jim

I have to say that I totally agree Jim and thats what I mean't by 'putting in some form of context'

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

In 1854 the royal cypher was replaced by the regimental badge.

Thanks Tim, The 51st /105th Foot saw alot of action from that date, preceding 1854 they had a number of 'Battle Honours' including Waterloo.

1854 India
1857 India
1857 Sepoy rebellion
1858 India
1863 Ambela expedition
1863 India
1872 India
1877 Jowaki operations

1878 India
1878 Afghanistan

1880 India
1881.07.01 1st Battalion, The King's Own Light Infantry (South Yorkshire Regiment)

1881 India: Dinapore
1885 - 2nd Bn. Malta, India (Karachi, Hyderabad, Quetta), Zhob Valley
Expedition, then Bombay, Poona and Nasirabad
1886 Burma

1887-1889 - Third Burmese War - Upper Burma Field Force
1st Battalion, The King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
1895.12 Gold Coast: Ashanti war (det)
1897 Mullingar
1899-1902 2nd Bn. - South African War - Belmont, Graspan, Modder River and Magersfontein, Kimberley, Fourteen Streams, Boshof, Gittenbergen. Orange Free State - Lindley, Bethlehem. Pretoria, Rustenberg (Nooitgedact and Bakenlaagnte) and Krugersdorp. Transvaal to Dundee and back to Transvaal. Also included 4th Battalion King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (T.A.)
1906 South Africa


Apparently the Light Infantry were 'skirmishers' deployed to disrupt the enemy line and 'force' the 'broken line'. The sword, being shorter than the military pattern, suggests two things....1. that close combat (often faced by skirmishers) would favour the shorter sword ? Or 2. the sword was made this length or cut down from standard length, possibly in India? Jim has mentioned before that the regulations in India were a little more lax and perhaps this blade length suited an individual or the battle conditions that they faced????

If anyone has any suggestions as to this 'shortened ?' sword I will be very pleased to hear them....

Regards David

[Paul Digard]

Hi David

I tried to post a reply last night but it vanished into the ether. I wondered if perhaps as a newby my posts are moderated and that takes time? Anyway, I'll try again...

The suggestion of a particular regiment based on the French horn is a great idea (I'd forgotten that detail) but I'm not convinced by the KOYLI attribution. Every version of that I've seen or could find on the web last night has a White Rose in the centre. Perhaps the 105 is more plausible but why not 105 as per the cap badge? The Highland Light Infantry also used a French horn, albeit on the usual Scottish background and with HLI in the centre.

But, browsing around, I did find one regiment with an 'empty' horn - the Royal Westmoreland Light Infantry Militia. (But the wrong way round?) Have a look here:

and scroll to the bottom


The top level of the site has a discussion forum which might be worth asking for help on?

Re the shortening of the blade - my guess would be that it got broken and repointed.

Is there really no trace of etching on the blade that might help?

Regards

Paul

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Paul Digard

Hi David

I tried to post a reply last night but it vanished into the ether. I wondered if perhaps as a newby my posts are moderated and that takes time? Anyway, I'll try again...

Hi Paul:

Yes the first post is moderated just to make sure new members are not spamming. Sometimes it takes a while to catch up with new posts in teh moderated queue. Sorry for the delay.

Apologies and a belated welcome. Hope you enjoy your time here.

Ian.