Talismanic symbols?

kai · 7th December 2006, 09:40 AM

It's a pity but there seems to be very little documented on Moro talismanic symbols. BTW, what happened to the forumites stationed on Jolo? Maybe they could try to research what knowledge may have survived locally?

Here are 2 more inlaid kris for reference:

Kalis Seko (Sulu)

Luma (Maguindanao?)

(tip towards the right; more pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243)

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 7th December 2006, 11:22 AM

Kai,

On your Luma the vegetative vine motif usually represent the creative forces.
The end looks like a rounded version of the old trident symbol.
Probably it's then Shiva's trident from the old beliefs still existing within Folk Islam?
If so one mening of the inlay could be that it's directing strong metaphysical forces towards the direction of the point (=opponent)?
An alternative meaning I have heard is that some people think it's a Naga and the end is a tongue?

Michael

Spunjer · 7th December 2006, 02:00 PM

a sundang with some serious agimat engravings on one side. just like this one on macario sakay's bulletproof vest...

VVV · 7th December 2006, 02:23 PM

Ron,

Interesting Sundang.
Have you found out anything about the meaning of the symbols, except that it's of protective character?

Michael

Spunjer · 7th December 2006, 04:15 PM

Michael,
it's the jesuit order's symbol...

Jens Nordlunde · 7th December 2006, 04:51 PM

I will not bore you with writing about Indian talismanic markings, as it is not what this thread is about, there is however one thing which have kept me wondering. In none of the threads about krises that I have seen, is mentioned that is was also used in south India (see Robert Elgood – Hindu Arms and Ritual). I wonder why, and I think you would be able to find many interesting markings on krises from India.

The snake is another matter, as you will find it in most, if not in all, religions of the area, plus in a lot of other places, if you read about the peoples/clans/tribes saga about how the Earth was populated – so no wonder that the snake is an important mark.

In The Wonder that was India, A.L.Basham writes about the fish. ‘The fish (Matsya). When the earth was overwhelmed by a universal flood Visnu took the form of a fish, who first warned Manu (the Hindu Adam) of the impending danger, and then carried him, his family, and the great Sages in a ship, fastened to a horn on his head. He also saved the Vedas from the flood. ……’

Many of these old stories from the first religions will be recognised from religion to religion, and the fish was one of the scared marks used by several religions. Think of the trisulas, used over a very big area. Flowers used, were decorative, but I also think they represented something else, maybe a deity. Have a look at this hilt, with two fish, a big flower, on the other side two big flowers, and four trisulas, on on each quillon and on on each langet.

Sorry, I think I got carried away.

VVV · 7th December 2006, 05:06 PM

Jens,

Beautiful and interesting hilt!

I agree that the same kind of myths are found in a lot of different cultures and religions.
And several of the old talismanic symbols found in f.i. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have Indian origin.
So please bore us some more.

Michael

7th December 2006, 02:00 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	a sundang with some serious agimat engravings on one side. just like this one on macario sakay's bulletproof vest... Attached Images

7th December 2006, 04:51 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I will not bore you with writing about Indian talismanic markings, as it is not what this thread is about, there is however one thing which have kept me wondering. In none of the threads about krises that I have seen, is mentioned that is was also used in south India (see Robert Elgood – Hindu Arms and Ritual). I wonder why, and I think you would be able to find many interesting markings on krises from India. The snake is another matter, as you will find it in most, if not in all, religions of the area, plus in a lot of other places, if you read about the peoples/clans/tribes saga about how the Earth was populated – so no wonder that the snake is an important mark. In The Wonder that was India, A.L.Basham writes about the fish. ‘The fish (Matsya). When the earth was overwhelmed by a universal flood Visnu took the form of a fish, who first warned Manu (the Hindu Adam) of the impending danger, and then carried him, his family, and the great Sages in a ship, fastened to a horn on his head. He also saved the Vedas from the flood. ……’ Many of these old stories from the first religions will be recognised from religion to religion, and the fish was one of the scared marks used by several religions. Think of the trisulas, used over a very big area. Flowers used, were decorative, but I also think they represented something else, maybe a deity. Have a look at this hilt, with two fish, a big flower, on the other side two big flowers, and four trisulas, on on each quillon and on on each langet. Sorry, I think I got carried away. Attached Images

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7th December 2006, 09:40 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	It's a pity but there seems to be very little documented on Moro talismanic symbols. BTW, what happened to the forumites stationed on Jolo? Maybe they could try to research what knowledge may have survived locally? Here are 2 more inlaid kris for reference: Kalis Seko (Sulu) Luma (Maguindanao?) (tip towards the right; more pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243) Regards, Kai

7th December 2006, 11:22 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Kai, On your Luma the vegetative vine motif usually represent the creative forces. The end looks like a rounded version of the old trident symbol. Probably it's then Shiva's trident from the old beliefs still existing within Folk Islam? If so one mening of the inlay could be that it's directing strong metaphysical forces towards the direction of the point (=opponent)? An alternative meaning I have heard is that some people think it's a Naga and the end is a tongue? Michael

7th December 2006, 02:23 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ron, Interesting Sundang. Have you found out anything about the meaning of the symbols, except that it's of protective character? Michael

7th December 2006, 04:15 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Michael, it's the jesuit order's symbol...

7th December 2006, 05:06 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens, Beautiful and interesting hilt! I agree that the same kind of myths are found in a lot of different cultures and religions. And several of the old talismanic symbols found in f.i. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have Indian origin. So please bore us some more. Michael