black sea yataghan

[Jim McDougall]

It is amazing how long this discussion of these 'Black Sea' yataghans has continued, especially the 'controversy' over thier origins. The evidence for origin in North Africa consists of the single example presented in Mr. Tirri's book, which as mentioned, was discussed at the talk presented by him several years ago. This theory was supported by a caption in a Michael German catalog from London, which had suggested a North African origin without corroborating support, as well as an entry from I believe a Russian book suggesting the same.

I began studying these curious yataghans in 1996 when I acquired my first example. Back then these were actually considered relatively rare, and there was considerable speculation about them. I discovered that they had been shown in the equally rare German publication "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, a prominant German arms scholar, in 1962. They were identified there as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, and in subsequent communications with the author I found that his attribution had derived from a scholarly article written in 1941 and presented by the Danish Arms and Armour Society. References for this article derived further from a Hungarian arms scholar who had travelled in regions of the Black Sea, Caucusus etc. in the latter 19th century. These weapons were provenanced from Turkish regions c.1850's, and I did confirm thier presence and dates collected in the museum listed in communications with that museum.
After several years of confirming this data, communications with various authors and scholars, in later years these weapons were confirmed in museums in Istanbul by Lee Jones, then of course, the ultimate confirmation by Ariel in his discovery and positive identification to the Laz group.
It seems more than dozens of these have now entered collections, most associated with those found in regions described near Trans-Caucasian regions including Trebizon, Erlikan and the Caucusus.
I was also present at the forementioned talk given by Mr. Tirri in Baltimore, which was indeed very well presented. My only question was...if this sword form originated in North Africa....why was there only one left.....with all the others migrating to the regions near the Black Sea?
While the evidence supporting North African origin is admittedly compelling since it does resemble a flyssa, I am more drawn to the evidence that I discovered in the years I have researched these. I think that with the movement of Ottoman mercenaries from these regions to North Africa, an example of these being subsequently decorated there with flyssa type motif is quite plausible.

Yet the debate will undoubtedly continue.
Best regards,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is amazing how long this discussion of these 'Black Sea' yataghans has continued, especially the 'controversy' over thier origins. The evidence for origin in North Africa consists of the single example presented in Mr. Tirri's book, which as mentioned, was discussed at the talk presented by him several years ago. This theory was supported by a caption in a Michael German catalog from London, which had suggested a North African origin without corroborating support, as well as an entry from I believe a Russian book suggesting the same.

I began studying these curious yataghans in 1996 when I acquired my first example. Back then these were actually considered relatively rare, and there was considerable speculation about them. I discovered that they had been shown in the equally rare German publication "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, a prominant German arms scholar, in 1962. They were identified there as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, and in subsequent communications with the author I found that his attribution had derived from a scholarly article written in 1941 and presented by the Danish Arms and Armour Society. References for this article derived further from a Hungarian arms scholar who had travelled in regions of the Black Sea, Caucusus etc. in the latter 19th century. These weapons were provenanced from Turkish regions c.1850's, and I did confirm thier presence and dates collected in the museum listed in communications with that museum.
After several years of confirming this data, communications with various authors and scholars, in later years these weapons were confirmed in museums in Istanbul by Lee Jones, then of course, the ultimate confirmation by Ariel in his discovery and positive identification to the Laz group.
It seems more than dozens of these have now entered collections, most associated with those found in regions described near Trans-Caucasian regions including Trebizon, Erlikan and the Caucusus.
I was also present at the forementioned talk given by Mr. Tirri in Baltimore, which was indeed very well presented. My only question was...if this sword form originated in North Africa....why was there only one left.....with all the others migrating to the regions near the Black Sea?
While the evidence supporting North African origin is admittedly compelling since it does resemble a flyssa, I am more drawn to the evidence that I discovered in the years I have researched these. I think that with the movement of Ottoman mercenaries from these regions to North Africa, an example of these being subsequently decorated there with flyssa type motif is quite plausible.

Yet the debate will undoubtedly continue.
Best regards,
Jim

Thank you Jim,

Sorry about my slow response, I did try to respond a couple times before taking off to the islands for the last month where we have no internet. I was able to get some much required reading done and unfortunetly was unable to find much on the Rumi calendar. I was able to find that the Ottoman calendar based on the sun cycle was called the Maliye calendar and that the later part of 1303 Maliye was infact 1888 Gregorian.
I think my recent yataghan therefore supports your and the other's conclusion to the Ottoman Black Sea origin for these weapons. The Ottomans were pretty much out of North Africa by this time.

Thanks again for the references
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff,
Nicely done, thanks very much for the additional information and support!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Here is a little more on this topic. This just ended on e-bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1
Anybody recognize the style of dress?

I will post the card below for posterity.

All the best
Jeff

[ariel]

I think you got it!
The boy on the left is holding BSY (Laz Bicagi) vertically and the one in the middle seems to have the same one stuck under the belt: only handle is visible).
Too bad the pic is small! Perhaps, we can contact the buyer and offer him a deal: he will send us larger views and we shall tell him where it is from . Not a bad deal for him, I think

[Rick]

Is this any improvement ?

[Mark]

I looks to me that all of that central group are holding laz bicagi, except the fellow whose crotch is bisected by the upright one. They seem to be children, in fact. This might explain the "baby" laz bicagi that one sees.