eBay "liquidated" my antique blade!

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is just how things are, sad but we have to lump it. I would even be careful of importing items with bone handle are elements.

Thanks Tim.

The eBay keris was not from a collector, it was from an estate sale. From the perspective of the seller, the keris was a random object they clearly knew very little about. The brief description the seller provided contained no information about the raw material(s) comprising the hilt and buntut. Hence, there was no mention of any of the materials or components of the keris being organic parts of animals that would fall under CITES prohibitions. I do not understand how I can apply for a CITES certificate under these circumstances based on a couple of photos of an unexplained whitish-looking material in the eBay listing. They could have been plastic/resin replacement parts for all I know.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

I am neither, Detlef, and you are not very polite; how can I arrange CITES papers for an object that, according to the seller's description, raises no issues CITES-wise.

Hello Adam,

I woke up at 4 a.m., took a look at this thread, and was deeply shocked when I saw the auction photos you posted. I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory.
Even if the keris had somehow managed to leave the USA by some fluke, it would almost certainly have been confiscated by Australian customs. It wasn't for nothing that I posted the attached thread; you could have known that this was a gamble. Incidentally, the seller also violated eBay's rules.
I couldn't find any other words this morning—sorry. It wasn't meant to be rude! I am sorry that you perceived my words as rude, but I am a person who speaks plainly.

Best regards,
Detlef

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Adam,

I woke up at 4 a.m., took a look at this thread, and was deeply shocked when I saw the auction photos you posted. I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory.
Even if the keris had somehow managed to leave the USA by some fluke, it would almost certainly have been confiscated by Australian customs. It wasn't for nothing that I posted the attached thread; you could have known that this was a gamble. Incidentally, the seller also violated eBay's rules.
I couldn't find any other words this morning—sorry. It wasn't meant to be rude! I am sorry that you perceived my words as rude, but I am a person who speaks plainly.

Best regards,
Detlef

I am not interested your sorry-not-sorry apology, just an explanation as to how one would go about applying for a CITES permit through the relevant authorities in both the US and Australia when the materials in question are unidentified.

"I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory."

You are quite wrong: I have seen components that, based on the (usually poor) online images, look very much like ivory (these are Australian auctions I'm talking about) that turn out to be modern resin.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

You are quite wrong: I have seen components that, based on the (usually poor) online images, look very much like ivory (these are Australian auctions I'm talking about) that turn out to be modern resin.

Really?
Here what you write to Alan:

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Really?
Here what you write to Alan:

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

Yes really. When the material is completely unidentified, in fact when the seller's extremely sparse description of the item does not even mention or allude to the whitish-coloured material at all, what is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit through both the US and my home country?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

I am not interested your sorry-not-sorry apology, just an explanation as to how one would go about applying for a CITES permit through the relevant authorities in both the US and Australia when the materials in question are unidentified.

Accept my apology or don't—that is entirely up to you. You state that, according to the label, the keris dates back to 1809; did plastic materials even exist back then?
Ivory of some sort always needed a CITES certificate, sadly. When you had been informed you should have known this.

And as a collector, I assume that you knew full well that it was, in all likelihood, ivory. In this case, it makes absolutely no difference whether the seller knew this or not. Ignorance plays absolutely no role in this instance.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Accept my apology or don't—that is entirely up to you. You state that, according to the label, the keris dates back to 1809; did plastic materials even exist back then?
Ivory of some sort always needed a CITES certificate, sadly. When you had been informed you should have known this.

And as a collector, I assume that you knew full well that it was, in all likelihood, ivory. In this case, it makes absolutely no difference whether the seller knew this or not. Ignorance plays absolutely no role in this instance.

It wasn't an apology, so there's nothing to accept.

I have a 19th century Moro kris with a replacement component made from plastic or resin of some kind - in any case, you read what I wrote before: for all I know, I thought the whitish-coloured material could be modern replacement parts.

If I had known what it was and I had all the information, I would have applied for the CITES permit(s).

You keep (plainly) asserting that I am ignorant, so explain to me (third time I've asked): What is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit, which requires specifying the listed species in question, when you do not know if the material in question is even of an organic nature?

[Lee]

The recriminations need to stop. Back to the topic!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by adamb

You keep (plainly) asserting that I am ignorant, so explain to me (third time I've asked): What is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit, which requires specifying the listed species in question, when you do not know if the material in question is even of an organic nature?

I had this issue years ago with a dagger I bought/auctioned by a Swiss auction house, you need an export CITES paper and an import CITES paper, at this time the auction house has been very helpful.
Here what AI stated:

CITES documentation consists of mandatory permits and certificates required for the international import, export, or re-export of endangered animals and plants, including parts or products. These documents, regulated by a treaty, ensure trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable. The required paperwork is verified at customs and depends on the species' protection level.Key Aspects of CITES DocumentationPermit Types: Export permits, import permits, re-export certificates, and certificates of origin are the main documents.Appendices I, II, & III: The type of permit depends on which CITES appendix the species is listed under, with Appendix I requiring the strictest control.Documentation Required:Export Document: Valid copy of the permit from the exporting country.Import Permit: Necessary for Appendix I species, often requiring evidence of legal acquisition.Scientific Documentation: Legal acquisition certificates for scientific purposes.Live Animal Transport: Specific documentation regarding the housing and care of live animals during transport is often needed.Key Information & ProceduresIssuing Authorities: Permits are issued by the designated Management Authority in each country.EU Requirements: Within the EU, strict documentation is required for Annex A species, and import/export permits are needed for trade outside the EU.Verification: Customs officials at border inspection posts verify the documentation upon import or export.In-Transit Requirements: Shipments moving through a country still require a valid CITES document from the country of origin to the destination.For official information regarding documentation in Germany, the Federal Agency for Nature Conservation (BfN) provides detailed guidelines and forms.

It's an not easy procedure but I think that in your special case it's to late and you would need the help of the seller.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Forgot to mention what AI tells us under which regularmentations falling hippo ivory since I am pretty sure that the ivory components of the keris in question are made from:

Hippopotamus ivory (teeth and tusks) falls under CITES Appendix II.Listing: Included in Appendix II since 1995.Definition: Species in Appendix II are not necessarily threatened with extinction, but trade must be strictly regulated to avoid over-exploitation.Trade Rules: International trade is allowed, but it requires the issuance of export permits, ensuring that the specimens were legally obtained and that the trade is not detrimental to the survival of the species.Status: A proposal in 2022 to uplist Hippopotamuses to Appendix I (prohibiting commercial trade) was not approved.

[Sajen]

And another note: ebay doesn't allow to post ivory of any sort, so a business due ebay wouldn't be possible so I guess that the listing was illegal due ebay rules. This would have been different by a private deal but you would need the help of the seller with CITES export permission.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I had this issue years ago with a dagger I bought/auctioned by a Swiss auction house, you need an export CITES paper and an import CITES paper, at this time the auction house has been very helpful.
Here what AI stated:

CITES documentation consists of mandatory permits and certificates required for the international import, export, or re-export of endangered animals and plants, including parts or products. These documents, regulated by a treaty, ensure trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable. The required paperwork is verified at customs and depends on the species' protection level.Key Aspects of CITES DocumentationPermit Types: Export permits, import permits, re-export certificates, and certificates of origin are the main documents.Appendices I, II, & III: The type of permit depends on which CITES appendix the species is listed under, with Appendix I requiring the strictest control.Documentation Required:Export Document: Valid copy of the permit from the exporting country.Import Permit: Necessary for Appendix I species, often requiring evidence of legal acquisition.Scientific Documentation: Legal acquisition certificates for scientific purposes.Live Animal Transport: Specific documentation regarding the housing and care of live animals during transport is often needed.Key Information & ProceduresIssuing Authorities: Permits are issued by the designated Management Authority in each country.EU Requirements: Within the EU, strict documentation is required for Annex A species, and import/export permits are needed for trade outside the EU.Verification: Customs officials at border inspection posts verify the documentation upon import or export.In-Transit Requirements: Shipments moving through a country still require a valid CITES document from the country of origin to the destination.For official information regarding documentation in Germany, the Federal Agency for Nature Conservation (BfN) provides detailed guidelines and forms.

It's an not easy procedure but I think that in your special case it's to late and you would need the help of the seller.

Regards,
Detlef

This does not explain how a buyer is supposed to start this complicated process when the whitish material in question, which is not described in the eBay listing, might not even be ivory. And where to draw the line with this? Should buyers also insist that sellers (who barely know what they have their hands on in the first place) have all the wooden components of a Keris dress scientifically investigated on the off chance these elements are made from a species of Southeast Asian timber that is on the CITES list?

[adamb]

In any case, as I said to begin with, eBay customer service informed me that the keris was "liquidated" because the carrier/US customs deemed it to be a prohibited import in Australia (i.e., a weapon); they said nothing about it being seized because of ivory or anything to do with CITES regulations.

[Ian]

Gents,


I think the ivory issue is unlikely to be the reason for Adam's keris being seized. I have heard of other items being confiscated because there is a belief that anything labeled as a weapon will be problematic importing onto Australia. This takes staff time for the shipper (in this case Pitney-Bowes) at the Australian end. I have formed the opinion that P-B has developed a policy that anything suggesting a weapon cannot be sent to Australia because it may cause them problems entering the country, eating up staff time, and losing them money.


The major shipping companies (UPS, DHL, FedEx, etc.) charge exorbitant fees for shipping from the US to Australia. This is because they are shipping companies, not a postal service. All shipments go through a formal Customs review coning into the country.


For auction items shipped via one of these shipping companies, I am plagued with requests for documentation. I must provide a copy of the purchase order prepared b y the seller. The item descriptions often contain mistakes and use certain words that trigger a nasty response from Customs. For example, sellers should never use the word "dagger" in their description. The official Australian Customs" and Police Dept's definition of a dagger is a symmetrical, double-edged blade, where the edge extends the whole length (or nearly the whole length) of the blade. However, if th seller labels a knife as a dagger, Australian Customs will treat it as of it meets the legal definition. This can present a problem for importers of keris into Australia.


Recent laws in some (but not all) Australian States have been poorly written to address concerns about machetes, whch have been used by juvenile gangs and others in street fighting and home invasions. These laws are so badly written that any large knife, bayonet, or sword can fit the definition of a machete. "Machete" is another term that should never be used to describe a knife entering this country.


Then we have laws and regulations covering edged weapons that might possibly be classified as concealed weapons. The cut off is an overall length of about 14 inches. Thus, everyday multi-purpose sheath knives, folding knives, and even box cutters are suspect and may require special permission to import. Strangely, kitchen knives and butchers' knives are not considered potential weapons.


To legally import edged weapons requires a permit from the State Police department where the applicant resides. In my State (Victoria), this requires a Form B709B, which is issued by the Police Commissioner's office. Application must be made for each individual item that is being imported using Form 1190. The process for each State differs slightly, and the application process can take several weeks. Only individuals who have satisfied certain criteria are eligible to apply for such a permit to import. Achieving the status of "bona fide collector" is one way. This requires another layer of bureaucratic red tape that must be navigated every three years, and entitles that person to apply for an import permit.


Being a collector of edged weapons in Australia is a marathon of bureaucratic hurdles put in place to make the public feel safer (notice I said feel safer).



End of rant!