eBay "liquidated" my antique blade!

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Jeff,

I never noticed this, I know that you can't post it here at the forum regarding the forum rules but can you show me examples by pm?

Regards,
Detlef

Sorry, examples are old and gone but should be easy to pull this one if re-posted with a search string based on confiscated example.

[Tim Simmons]

Uk ebay will not let you bid on anything listed with the word weapon in it. Will not let bid on swords or some knives.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by JeffS

Sorry, examples are old and gone but should be easy to pull this one if re-posted with a search string based on confiscated example.

Thank you Jeff! For this Adam need to post the keris with description and some pics.

Regards,
Detlef

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Jeff! For this Adam need to post the keris with description and some pics.

Regards,
Detlef

G'day Detlef,

Here it is. Quite apart from the fact it is a wonderful old "Bugis/Malay" blade (Sumatran/Riau?) in excellent condition, it has an old paper label attached with the following inscription: "1809 Kriss Malais 490-".

Absolutely gutted to think US customs destroyed it, but I retain a (very) slim hope it might still be out there somewhere; in which case, I would greatly appreciate it if the VS forumites could keep an eye out for it.

With thanks, Adam

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I very strongly suspect that we have ivory of one form or another as a component part of this keris?

If this is so, the decision to liquidate was probably based upon the ivory content rather than the weapon nature.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Adam, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I very strongly suspect that we have ivory of one form or another as a component part of this keris?

If this is so, the decision to liquidate was probably based upon the ivory content rather than the weapon nature.

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

[Sajen]

Dear Adam,

I have to say that you are either very naive and/or very uninformed! How could you possibly believe that you could import ivory (in this case, hippopotamus ivory) from one country (the USA) into another (Australia) without CITES papers?
If anyone can be held responsible for the possible destruction of this beautiful Malay Keris, then—unfortunately—it is you. Sorry!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23029

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Dear Adam,

I have to say that you are either very naive and/or very uninformed! How could you possibly believe that you could import ivory (in this case, hippopotamus ivory) from one country (the USA) into another (Australia) without CITES papers?
If anyone can be held responsible for the possible destruction of this beautiful Malay Keris, then—unfortunately—it is you. Sorry!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23029

I am neither, Detlef, and you are not very polite; how can I arrange CITES papers for an object that, according to the seller's description, raises no issues CITES-wise.

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, in the case of your keris, it was probably inspected by PitneyBowes, the ivory component was identified and that was that. End of story.

However, once Customs gets involved the outcome can vary a lot, depending on country & the Customs officers concerned.

To ship ivory legally, most especially into the USA you can be faced with high expense for verification, state laws that ban everything that even looks like ivory, immense disregard for actual law, & more or less general arrogant & "I am the law" attitude. Then there is the inbuilt Catch 22.

I've looked at this import/export of ivory over a number of years --- like about 35 years --- and I have come to the opinion I will only sell ivory within Australia, & I do have quite a lot of very valuable ivory.

The USA position on ivory is so disastrous that an extremely well known researcher & international authority on the Javanese keris gave me his collection of ivory hilts because he was concerned that if he had given those hilts along with the rest of his collection, to the museum of his university, that eventually they would be destroyed.

When thinking about USA and ivory bans, or for that matter, bans on anything & the USA, it is perhaps a good idea to remember that products sourced from kangaroos are banned in at least California, I was advised by one of the leaders of this push to ban kangaroo leather & etc, that these bans were very necessary because the Australian Kangaroo was an endangered species.

This is the sort of people we are dealing with:- ignorance coupled with a total absence of logic & good top dressing of arrogance.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by adamb

G'day Detlef,

Here it is. …
Absolutely gutted to think US customs destroyed it, …

Adam, I have little doubt that the hilt, if inspected, would have triggered suspicions regarding CITES. That’s all they need to confiscate and destroy something…unless you have a “certificate of antiquity.” So sorry for this!

https://www.fws.gov/international-affairs/cites