Introduction and Assistance request - Naga Sasra 11 Luk?

A. G. Maisey · 24th January 2026, 04:56 AM

That is a real good thread Rick, I reckon Jay could gain a lot from that.

Hell --- I gained a lot from it, especially when I looked at photos of my friends who have passed, & I'm still here.

Our indigenous people, Australian Aborigines, have a thing about seeing pictures of & hearing the names of people who have moved on. Easy to understand why.

JayHasAKeris · 24th January 2026, 07:37 PM

Thank you again for your invaluable insight

That thread indeed was a fascinating read! Especially as this is closer to my own initial interest of damascus steel, forged and appreciated solely for the art of steel making

I am not sure if photographs of non-ethnological things are allowed, but I could give you an example if they were. Incredible to think that you not only met these people, but were even trained by them, Mr. Maisey. I also thank you for your deeper explanation of the meaning of empu. I would like to point out that going by the old Javanese meaning I think I might be able to find someone here who will agree with me that you are "a gentleman, a well respected member of the community"

But I understand your rejection of the modern meaning, which was the one I meant of course, not having been aware of the old meaning yet.

Mr. Maisey, your input leads to a very humbling realisation... it seems if I really and truely want to understand all about keris, I would have to be reborn, ideally in Java, and go start studying way earlier than I did in this incarnation. It is however a fascinating subject, I like the psychological aspect of it all connected with the craftsmanship. I also like the metallurgical aspect more and more the more I learn about that, very interesting

I may never be able to fully understand this strange world I stumbled into recently, but as for now there is still a lot more to be learned and I am working on reading up on it all as best as I can, with the internet as my only source for now, as time permits. Thanks for helping me learn so much more and giving me those valuable pointers

it's tough to sift through things written over decades, you guys have been active here for quite a while. Also, David, if you like smokey single malts, allow me to recommend some Ardbeg Uigeadail, that is a topic I am more familiar with than keris

Is there anything more one of you can tell me about the pamor pattern on my keris? It is sleeping under the patina, but I think due to the groves from the etching it should be visible enough maybe to give it a name?

I can't make a guess, this is so new to me... But as I said, I'm in it for the patterns

I'd appreciate a Bob Kramer knife as well, not that I own any. I do not want to direspect keris in any way, just pointing out my usual interest would be "pretty damascus steel patterns". Hence my special interest in the keris pattern

If any more pictures would be needed to better judge it, I'll be happy to try and provide better shots

Also: should any attempt be made to unwind the cord from the pesi to check for rust or possible markings? I haven't touched that at all yet and don't think I should?

Thank you very much again

A. G. Maisey · 24th January 2026, 08:21 PM

Thank you for your compliments Jay.

I doubt very much that anybody understands "--- all about keris --- ". We all understand a little bit, and even putting together all of today's more or less generally accepted understandings, we still fall short of all understandings over the time that the keris has been with us.

It is probably true to say that there really is no single universal understanding of the keris, so we all just gain what we can.

In Jawa, we find that some things that might be accepted in one keris study group are not accepted a different keris study group. There are many aspects to keris study.

The pamor motif of your keris appears to be a random motif, something that we call "beras wutah" (wos wutah) = scattered rice grains, the talismanic value of this motif is that the possessor will never know want, he will never go hungry. It is the most common pamor motif. Keris blades that have been heavily carved with nagas or some other enhancement very rarely have complex pamor motifs.

In respect of learning about keris. I plodded along for around 30 years scratching away at keris related literature available in English. Then when I was around 40 years of age I was accepted by Empu Suparman as a pupil. By this time I had gained a more or less acceptable ability in Bahasa Indonesia. I was actually accepted by Empu Suparman when I was 39, but he delayed the commencement of my training until I had passed the age of 40, he, and many other senior Javanese men, at that time held the opinion that a man needed to be settled & married & with children & possessions before he was ready for any advanced knowledge. They were very reluctant to impart any advanced understandings to people whom they believed to be still immature.

The principle that Empu Suparman adopted in his teaching was that he would not provide gratuitous information nor instruction. He would answer any question that I asked, but he would not deliver lectures on things I was not ready to understand. I was expected to illustrate my readiness to receive information by asking questions that demonstrated my readiness.

My own approach is somewhat similar:- ask questions and you will get answers.

In your research you should always have an objective, & once that objective has been identified, you can then pursue it.

In my experience, the "shotgun approach" of trying to learn everything at the same time does not produce particularly positive results.

Here is a link to a page in my site, you might find it to be of interest:-

https://www.kerisattosanaji.com/forge-work

Pesi.

I would most definitely remove the wrapping on the pesi, lightly clean & oil the pesi, and replace the wrapping with knitting wool.

JayHasAKeris · 24th January 2026, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for your compliments Jay.

My own approach is somewhat similar:- ask questions and you will get answers.

In your research you should always have an objective, & once that objective has been identified, you can then pursue it.

In my experience, the "shotgun approach" of trying to learn everything at the same time does not produce particularly positive results.

Here is a link to a page in my site, you might find it to be of interest:-

https://www.kerisattosanaji.com/forge-work

Pesi.

I would most definitely remove the wrapping on the pesi, lightly clean & oil the pesi, and replace the wrapping with knitting wool.

Thank you very much

I am reading through all of your website and this is among the first I looked at, it is very fascinating! I feel very grateful such a knowledgable person is answering my newbie questions. I feel like talking to the David Attenborough of the Keris world.

If you seriously do not mind, I would probably have dozens of questions to ask, but I really do not want to waste your time. Thank you very much for your insight on the pattern. I guess it makes sense to not use an overly complicated pattern, it would distract from the nagas central role? I am in my mid 40s, married and with children, so I would fulfil those basic requirements

I would not be able to be taught the way you have, married with children means my main responsibilities are elsewhere... but when interested in a topic, I try to study it thoroughly.

If I judge your approach correctly, you might think "he posed questions before that he has not yet received answers to. If he thinks these questions are important, he should ask them again". You were right, I asked about the pamor again and you once again gave me an incredibly insightful answer

So let me pose the other question that I haven't been able to find the answer to yet... what is my naga "holding"?

Could you give me an insight on what the pointy thing below his mouth is?

Thank you so much

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2026, 12:52 AM

The pointy thing below the Naga's mouth?

I do not think that our naga is holding it, based upon what I believe I can see in the photos I think it has a couple of functions, firstly, it occupies a position that would be taken by the gandhik if the Naga had not already taken most of that position for his head, secondly it is in a form that might well be able to be interpreted as a representation of a meru, or tumpal , these motifs represent Mount Kailash, abode of the Gods, resting place of the ancestors before they merge to become one with their own personal deity.

The meru has the nature of a shrine, the tumpal is only the name of the motif, but that tumpal motif relates to the meru & of course to Mount Kailash, these come back to the gunungan , gunungan from gunung, gunung = mountain, all mountains are related to Mount Kailash & are thought of as sacred. Mountains in turn can be thought of as not only related to the Gods, but to Siwa (Shiva) in particular.

The lower slopes of Mount Kailash are covered in foliage and these forested slopes are the home of Bhoma, son of Dewa Wisnu & Dewi Pertiwi. He is the guardian of the boundary between the seen & the unseen world, he is a protective spirit who symbolises growth and fertility. We often find him guarding doorways and gateways, especially temples & holy places.

In the wayang, the first puppet that is presented to begin a performance is the gunungan, the other name for the gunungan is "kayon" or "kekayon", this is from the root "kayu" = "wood" but what is inferred is "tree" & specifically, one tree, which is the Tree of Life.

Now, the Tree of Life is also known as the Kalpataru. So symbolically that gunungan or kayon is also the Kalpataru Tree, or more specifically, the Kalpataru tree grows upon Mount Kailash, but Mount Kailash itself then becomes symbolic of not only the earthly meru, but also of Shiva, the Gods, the ancestors, the Kalpataru. Life itself.

If we go to post #3 in this link that Rick previously gave us:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=pamor+poleng

we can see Pak Pauzan looking at his keris with Kalpataru pamor, this pamor symbolises life.

Now, if we look closely at the our little pointy thing, I am inclined to think I can see that curling upwards from its base we can see some ornamentation that looks like a lung-lungan motif, ie, a vine motif, and this motif symbolises growth & the natural world, so, the lower slopes of Mount Kailash.

It is a good idea to remember that in Javanese culture the more meanings & interpretations that can be attached to something, the stronger that something is. There are many more ways of thinking of just about anything, than only one.

JayHasAKeris · 25th January 2026, 07:30 PM

Mr. Maisey, thank you so much again for your incredibly detailed explanations. I can't pretend I can fully comprehend your answer yet, but it gives me more to read up on, which I am grateful for! The layers upon layers of symbolism in these blades are stunning.

I have many more questions, but I need to pace them a bit, have to work on the backlog of things to understand first

Going back from the spiritual side to the object of metal, I followed your advice and removed the wrapping. It seems it has been there quite a while, and there was active rust under it, so I removed this (only with camellia seed oil) as best as I could. For the first time, I could also see the white metal that I have learned to associate with the pamor, quite interesting. Definitely not a cheap fake, I can rule that out from the metallurgy.

What I find fascinating about my keris is that it has a spiritual meaning to (try to) understand, a history to research and a historic meaning and on top of that is a fascinating object artfully crafted from different metals. A kind soul has sent me a lot of pictures of various other Naga Sasra blades from a book I do not have access to... that has led to many more questions, but appreciating the metal side of it while cleaning the pesi has led me to comparatively rather simple questions for today: How many hours would it have taken to make a Keris like that? How long for the forging, then how long for the carving? And would the bladesmith/empu be the one to work in all the gold inlays as well? From the pictures I have seen, my blade probably used to have a lot more gold than it does now, and that is a very interesting topic in itself, but for now I just wonder if the empu would do the gold inlays or if a different craftsman would take over the finished blade.

Thank you for your guidance in understanding and appreciating my Keris better

A. G. Maisey · 26th January 2026, 02:49 AM

If you ask a working keris maker how long it takes to make a keris you are likely to get an answer like 6 months, or a year, or some other rather lengthy period.

I cannot comment on how long it might take other people, but I can say definitely how long it has taken me.

The second keris I made was made under the guidance of Empu Suparman. This keris took about 8 hours over 2 days to forge& I then worked on carving it for a further 16 days, working between 6 & 8 hours each day, the forge work was done by three men, a smith and two strikers, I worked as one of the strikers.

The longest time it took me to make a keris was 49 days. 9 of these days involved 3 men working about 6 to 8 hours per day over a 3 day period, it then took me 40 days working 6 to 8 hours each day to carve it. It was forged in Solo, I carved it in Australia.

I made several keris completely in Australia, & in Australia I needed to work by myself, without a striker, the forge work was done on coke, I used a 12 pound hammer for the heavy work & a 4 pound, one handed hammer for the lighter work, I used a goose neck hold down tool anchored in the pritcel hole to hold the forging for striking with the heavy hammer, it took me about 4 or 5 days of forge work to produce the forging from which to carve the keris, I was not working full days, maybe only 4 or 5 hours each day. These other keris were all straight keris and they each took between 14 & 16 days to carve.

Every keris I have ever made was heat treated, this is not something that is done with most keris made today.

It would take Empu Suparman about 14 days to carve a keris.

You have asked how long it would take to carve a keris like the one you have. I do not know, but I'd guess maybe 2 or 3 times as long as it took me to make something very much more simple.

The empu or pandai keris only makes the blade, separate craftsmen do other work, the gold kinatah work is done by a specialist craftsman.

25th January 2026, 12:52 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,188	The pointy thing below the Naga's mouth? I do not think that our naga is holding it, based upon what I believe I can see in the photos I think it has a couple of functions, firstly, it occupies a position that would be taken by the gandhik if the Naga had not already taken most of that position for his head, secondly it is in a form that might well be able to be interpreted as a representation of a meru, or tumpal , these motifs represent Mount Kailash, abode of the Gods, resting place of the ancestors before they merge to become one with their own personal deity. The meru has the nature of a shrine, the tumpal is only the name of the motif, but that tumpal motif relates to the meru & of course to Mount Kailash, these come back to the gunungan , gunungan from gunung, gunung = mountain, all mountains are related to Mount Kailash & are thought of as sacred. Mountains in turn can be thought of as not only related to the Gods, but to Siwa (Shiva) in particular. The lower slopes of Mount Kailash are covered in foliage and these forested slopes are the home of Bhoma, son of Dewa Wisnu & Dewi Pertiwi. He is the guardian of the boundary between the seen & the unseen world, he is a protective spirit who symbolises growth and fertility. We often find him guarding doorways and gateways, especially temples & holy places. In the wayang, the first puppet that is presented to begin a performance is the gunungan, the other name for the gunungan is "kayon" or "kekayon", this is from the root "kayu" = "wood" but what is inferred is "tree" & specifically, one tree, which is the Tree of Life. Now, the Tree of Life is also known as the Kalpataru. So symbolically that gunungan or kayon is also the Kalpataru Tree, or more specifically, the Kalpataru tree grows upon Mount Kailash, but Mount Kailash itself then becomes symbolic of not only the earthly meru, but also of Shiva, the Gods, the ancestors, the Kalpataru. Life itself. If we go to post #3 in this link that Rick previously gave us:- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=pamor+poleng we can see Pak Pauzan looking at his keris with Kalpataru pamor, this pamor symbolises life. Now, if we look closely at the our little pointy thing, I am inclined to think I can see that curling upwards from its base we can see some ornamentation that looks like a lung-lungan motif, ie, a vine motif, and this motif symbolises growth & the natural world, so, the lower slopes of Mount Kailash. It is a good idea to remember that in Javanese culture the more meanings & interpretations that can be attached to something, the stronger that something is. There are many more ways of thinking of just about anything, than only one. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 25th January 2026 at 01:03 AM.

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24th January 2026, 04:56 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,188	That is a real good thread Rick, I reckon Jay could gain a lot from that. Hell --- I gained a lot from it, especially when I looked at photos of my friends who have passed, & I'm still here. Our indigenous people, Australian Aborigines, have a thing about seeing pictures of & hearing the names of people who have moved on. Easy to understand why.

24th January 2026, 07:37 PM	#2
JayHasAKeris Member Join Date: Jan 2026 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Thank you again for your invaluable insight That thread indeed was a fascinating read! Especially as this is closer to my own initial interest of damascus steel, forged and appreciated solely for the art of steel making I am not sure if photographs of non-ethnological things are allowed, but I could give you an example if they were. Incredible to think that you not only met these people, but were even trained by them, Mr. Maisey. I also thank you for your deeper explanation of the meaning of empu. I would like to point out that going by the old Javanese meaning I think I might be able to find someone here who will agree with me that you are "a gentleman, a well respected member of the community" But I understand your rejection of the modern meaning, which was the one I meant of course, not having been aware of the old meaning yet. Mr. Maisey, your input leads to a very humbling realisation... it seems if I really and truely want to understand all about keris, I would have to be reborn, ideally in Java, and go start studying way earlier than I did in this incarnation. It is however a fascinating subject, I like the psychological aspect of it all connected with the craftsmanship. I also like the metallurgical aspect more and more the more I learn about that, very interesting I may never be able to fully understand this strange world I stumbled into recently, but as for now there is still a lot more to be learned and I am working on reading up on it all as best as I can, with the internet as my only source for now, as time permits. Thanks for helping me learn so much more and giving me those valuable pointers it's tough to sift through things written over decades, you guys have been active here for quite a while. Also, David, if you like smokey single malts, allow me to recommend some Ardbeg Uigeadail, that is a topic I am more familiar with than keris Is there anything more one of you can tell me about the pamor pattern on my keris? It is sleeping under the patina, but I think due to the groves from the etching it should be visible enough maybe to give it a name? I can't make a guess, this is so new to me... But as I said, I'm in it for the patterns I'd appreciate a Bob Kramer knife as well, not that I own any. I do not want to direspect keris in any way, just pointing out my usual interest would be "pretty damascus steel patterns". Hence my special interest in the keris pattern If any more pictures would be needed to better judge it, I'll be happy to try and provide better shots Also: should any attempt be made to unwind the cord from the pesi to check for rust or possible markings? I haven't touched that at all yet and don't think I should? Thank you very much again

24th January 2026, 08:21 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,188	Thank you for your compliments Jay. I doubt very much that anybody understands "--- all about keris --- ". We all understand a little bit, and even putting together all of today's more or less generally accepted understandings, we still fall short of all understandings over the time that the keris has been with us. It is probably true to say that there really is no single universal understanding of the keris, so we all just gain what we can. In Jawa, we find that some things that might be accepted in one keris study group are not accepted a different keris study group. There are many aspects to keris study. The pamor motif of your keris appears to be a random motif, something that we call "beras wutah" (wos wutah) = scattered rice grains, the talismanic value of this motif is that the possessor will never know want, he will never go hungry. It is the most common pamor motif. Keris blades that have been heavily carved with nagas or some other enhancement very rarely have complex pamor motifs. In respect of learning about keris. I plodded along for around 30 years scratching away at keris related literature available in English. Then when I was around 40 years of age I was accepted by Empu Suparman as a pupil. By this time I had gained a more or less acceptable ability in Bahasa Indonesia. I was actually accepted by Empu Suparman when I was 39, but he delayed the commencement of my training until I had passed the age of 40, he, and many other senior Javanese men, at that time held the opinion that a man needed to be settled & married & with children & possessions before he was ready for any advanced knowledge. They were very reluctant to impart any advanced understandings to people whom they believed to be still immature. The principle that Empu Suparman adopted in his teaching was that he would not provide gratuitous information nor instruction. He would answer any question that I asked, but he would not deliver lectures on things I was not ready to understand. I was expected to illustrate my readiness to receive information by asking questions that demonstrated my readiness. My own approach is somewhat similar:- ask questions and you will get answers. In your research you should always have an objective, & once that objective has been identified, you can then pursue it. In my experience, the "shotgun approach" of trying to learn everything at the same time does not produce particularly positive results. Here is a link to a page in my site, you might find it to be of interest:- https://www.kerisattosanaji.com/forge-work Pesi. I would most definitely remove the wrapping on the pesi, lightly clean & oil the pesi, and replace the wrapping with knitting wool.

25th January 2026, 07:30 PM	#6
JayHasAKeris Member Join Date: Jan 2026 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Mr. Maisey, thank you so much again for your incredibly detailed explanations. I can't pretend I can fully comprehend your answer yet, but it gives me more to read up on, which I am grateful for! The layers upon layers of symbolism in these blades are stunning. I have many more questions, but I need to pace them a bit, have to work on the backlog of things to understand first Going back from the spiritual side to the object of metal, I followed your advice and removed the wrapping. It seems it has been there quite a while, and there was active rust under it, so I removed this (only with camellia seed oil) as best as I could. For the first time, I could also see the white metal that I have learned to associate with the pamor, quite interesting. Definitely not a cheap fake, I can rule that out from the metallurgy. What I find fascinating about my keris is that it has a spiritual meaning to (try to) understand, a history to research and a historic meaning and on top of that is a fascinating object artfully crafted from different metals. A kind soul has sent me a lot of pictures of various other Naga Sasra blades from a book I do not have access to... that has led to many more questions, but appreciating the metal side of it while cleaning the pesi has led me to comparatively rather simple questions for today: How many hours would it have taken to make a Keris like that? How long for the forging, then how long for the carving? And would the bladesmith/empu be the one to work in all the gold inlays as well? From the pictures I have seen, my blade probably used to have a lot more gold than it does now, and that is a very interesting topic in itself, but for now I just wonder if the empu would do the gold inlays or if a different craftsman would take over the finished blade. Thank you for your guidance in understanding and appreciating my Keris better

26th January 2026, 02:49 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,188	If you ask a working keris maker how long it takes to make a keris you are likely to get an answer like 6 months, or a year, or some other rather lengthy period. I cannot comment on how long it might take other people, but I can say definitely how long it has taken me. The second keris I made was made under the guidance of Empu Suparman. This keris took about 8 hours over 2 days to forge& I then worked on carving it for a further 16 days, working between 6 & 8 hours each day, the forge work was done by three men, a smith and two strikers, I worked as one of the strikers. The longest time it took me to make a keris was 49 days. 9 of these days involved 3 men working about 6 to 8 hours per day over a 3 day period, it then took me 40 days working 6 to 8 hours each day to carve it. It was forged in Solo, I carved it in Australia. I made several keris completely in Australia, & in Australia I needed to work by myself, without a striker, the forge work was done on coke, I used a 12 pound hammer for the heavy work & a 4 pound, one handed hammer for the lighter work, I used a goose neck hold down tool anchored in the pritcel hole to hold the forging for striking with the heavy hammer, it took me about 4 or 5 days of forge work to produce the forging from which to carve the keris, I was not working full days, maybe only 4 or 5 hours each day. These other keris were all straight keris and they each took between 14 & 16 days to carve. Every keris I have ever made was heat treated, this is not something that is done with most keris made today. It would take Empu Suparman about 14 days to carve a keris. You have asked how long it would take to carve a keris like the one you have. I do not know, but I'd guess maybe 2 or 3 times as long as it took me to make something very much more simple. The empu or pandai keris only makes the blade, separate craftsmen do other work, the gold kinatah work is done by a specialist craftsman.