Crucible steel in Malela keris

[adamb]

Is anyone willing to venture an opinion on the swirly pattern evident in this Malela keris? Is this crucible steel, unlikely as the prospect of a wootz keris blade might seem?

[Interested Party]

I am no expert. My thoughts are maybe?, but I would think a high layer count mechanical damascus would be much more likely. Something similar to what the sides of high-end Japanese are constructed of. Either way I like it!

Can you see a temper line anywhere in the straight section?

[A. G. Maisey]

That is a very astute observation, IP.

Very.

Well done.

That thought never crossed my mind, but it should have.

Here is are two photos of something I made, it has over 4000 nominal layers in it, no nickel, only wrought iron & 01(oil hardening steel #1). Both sides are shown. A three stack was folded & welded 12 times. It has been heat treated, oil quench, double draw.

This was stained with ferric chloride once, & has not been touched since. No etching, no repeat washings with acid, such as is done with a keris.

Imagine what this tight layering would have done to my blade if it had been treated like a keris.

Yes, I do believe that the answer is multiple folding & welding; probably made necessary because the material from which it is made required a lot of washing --- "washing" = folding and welding in the forge to remove impurities prior to forging into a billet that can then be forged to shape prior to cold work taking place.

I've played with the photo a bit so that the grain in the metal can be seen, it is a handheld snapshot, it might be seen better if I had photographed it in a different way.

[jagabuwana]

Hello, Adam - nice keris! Thank you for sharing.

Hello, Alan:

- From what you and IP have said, it seems like the effect on Adam's keris could be produced by arranging the layers as you would for pamor wos wutah, but folding many more times to create a denser pamor which might look like wootz. Am I understanding correctly? If so, would this still be called pamor urab urab as opposed to wos wutah, or does pamor UU refer specifically to something with wootz construct?

- If this keris were in your hand, how would you identify whether it is crucible or forge welded?

- From previous discussions in this forum I've gathered that a whole-wootz keris is exceedingly rare. But if they were more common, would you be any more inclined to think that this is made of crucible steel?

- To my eye this keris appears have no slorok. If I'm right is that a relevant factor in this discussion?

[A. G. Maisey]

Jaga, this keris has no pamor, it is all from the same material, it has no core.

Don't forget that before ferric material is mixed with nickel bearing material, that ferric material needs to be washed, so what we're looking at in this blade is, I think, material that was so dirty to begin with that it needed a very large number of weld heats to get it clean. I believe that it is extremely unlikely that the maker intended it to finish up looking like it does, but he just had to keep on folding & welding to get it clean enough to use.

What I've found is that even with poor quality wrought iron, it normally comes clean after about 6 or 8 times folded & welded. When it is clean then you can add the nickel & weld & fold some more.

I've only ever seen one example of pamor urab-urab, & I do not know what the material was, it might have been like this keris, it might have been wootz, but I would never be able to identify wootz positively from a photo, I'd need to handle it, & even then I could be wrong.

As to how I would ID anything at all, the answer is pretty much always going to be "more than 70 years of experience", that & the fact that I've gotten my hands dirty along the way. But seriously, simply by looking , examining the nature of the material & following the grain.

I do not know if a keris made entirely of wootz ever existed. I know that at least one gonjo did, but a whole keris? Doubt it.

Yeah, it has no core, but all that does is tell us that it cannot have any pamor either.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I am no expert. My thoughts are maybe?, but I would think a high layer count mechanical damascus would be much more likely. Something similar to what the sides of high-end Japanese are constructed of. Either way I like it!

Can you see a temper line anywhere in the straight section?

Thank you IP; I cannot see a visible temper line in the straight section (more pics attached)

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, what you are looking for is a "quench" line, not a temper line, it indicates the point at which the quench might have stopped, it is a change in colour of the material, but it can disappear after a blade is polished. It does not need to be a straight line, it can be a graduated area.

I've put a couple of arrows onto one of your pics, these arrows DO NOT indicate where I believe a quench line is, they indicate points that can look similar to the area where a quench line might be, & they are in places where a quench line might be expected to be found.

Then again, it is entirely possible that the maker did not wish to heat treat the blade, many decorative, very expensive, modern custom knives do not get a heat treat also. And for the same reason:- if the blade has been made as a work of art & not for intended use, then why risk damage to the blade by bringing it up to critical & plunging it into a quench?

[Tatyana Dianova]

I have a Palembang Keris which has a Wootz blade, made most probably from an imported Indian ingot. The Wootz pattern is unmistakable and it is similar to Indian Katar blades. There is even a characteristic crack, a technological feature originating from Wootz ingot structure.
Wrangan doesn't bring out a Wootz pattern according to a person who makes Warangi on a regular basis. Maybe this a reason why we see Keris with Wootz pattern so seldom.

[A. G. Maisey]

First I've seen like that Tatyana. Thank you.

Yes, I think Sumatera would be more likely --- maybe much more likely --- to have had blades made of wootz than Jawa.