Help please ,any info?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, collectors agree on a lot of things, & they disagree on a lot of things.

The people who make and use these things mostly disagree with many, if not most of the collectors.

For many years people from outside SE Asian societies have been flim-flamed and fed incorrect information by the people living inside those societies.

I myself do not always agree with some of the things I might say in public, however, in the case of the hilt I have commented upon here, I myself have no firm opinion in respect of the name.

Why?

Because I do not know where it was made or used.

The name options I provided came from books, books written by both Indonesian collectors & collectors from outside Indonesian societies.

The opinions I have at the moment all depend upon where it was made & used.

Even if I knew where it was made & used, the name that I firmed up on might be incorrect according to the makers & users.

The idea of "correctness" is a variable one.

Hello Alan,

In general I am in line with you. What I meant was, when you call the hilt in question "Putra Satu" most collectors will know which sort of hilt is meant. At least the name game is not so important for me.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Understood Detlef.

With collecting, & I'm not just talking about the sort of things that we discuss here, I'm talking about all sorts of collectables, the people who actually collect often have very little knowledge or understanding of the items that they do collect, so they construct their own terms, & sometimes their own language when they talk about these things.

With the users in place of origin, the names that they use often differ from the names used by collectors.

With the makers, their names can differ from the users and from the collectors.

So just exactly what is "correct"?

From my perspective I'm more or less happy with any name that gets the message across.

But if we are trying to impart some understanding to somebody who has not yet any great depth of understanding, then I feel that perhaps it is not a bad idea to give a little more than is really necessary. If we move past the generic "ukiran" or "pegangan" or even "jejeran" then maybe we need to try to be a wee bit definitive.

Certainly, that "Putra Satu" is well recognised, but it is in fact a corruption of "Potre Sadu", & it is a Madura form & it needs a face, that face will be the face of a demon, in Madura the similar form but lacking a face becomes Balu Mekabun.

Potre Sadu was in fact Joko Tole's wife, who was both blind & ugly. So using Podre Sadu to prevent evil forces from entering into one's keris seems to me to be a pretty good idea

Some people believe that this "Putra Satu" name is in fact an invention of collectors, not a true name, because "Putra Satu" is Bahasa Indonesia, not Madurese, not Javanese, & it really makes no sense:- putra -- son, satu -- one. Is that protection against the forces of evil? Or is it just something that was misheard, misunderstood and became graven in stone.

[Jayaningkurnia]

Greetings everyone. I am a newcomers and joiners (after spending some time going through the forums and learning invaluable insights from the various threads and posting - forever grateful for the generous sharing of your knowledge and wisdom).

By way of introduction, I am an Indonesian of Jogja heritage but grew up in Singapore and only recently started learning about the wonderful world of tosan aji. I have been trying to absorb as much as I can (also want to say thank you to Mr. Maisey for his list of recommended keris literatures and resources - very helpful and I've been fortunate enough to be able to source some of it to initiate my learnings).

Just wanted to add on the matter brought up by Mr. Maisey - I wholeheartedly agree on the importance of using the proper name for a keris hilt design. I hope as a community of people who care about tosan aji, we try to be more accurate and careful in trying to use the proper terms. While the use of "collectively-agreed" name might have started from innocent misunderstanding or mistaken recollection, the impact of perpetuating such 'corrupted' name is significant as it may cause future difficulties in understanding the origin and didactic/philosophical content of the design which might eventually be lost altogether (like many values behind the various kris component designs that have been lost thus far).

One (version of) fascinating story behind this design can be found in this article: https://duniadian.com/keliru-hulu-pottre-sadhu/ (in Indonesian but can be easily translated using Google translate).

With regards to the keris originally posted at the start of this thread - the angles and cropping of the image makes it challenging, but if I may take a stab: the dhapur is quite pakem pandawa cinarita, pamor pedaringan kebak, of mataram characters, the design of the luk and the greneng (to my newbie eyes) suggest old mataram (senopaten?).

The warangka is Jogja gayaman-style, seemingly from timoho wood. The pendhok (the metal tube covering the blade area) seems to be of decent quality based on the carving, though I can't quite make out the design from the image; likewise can't see the mendhak design well. The highly stylised pottre sadhu hilt seems to be of fine carvings (and to me a source of confusion as to why this hilt is paired with these warangka and blade).

Offering my two cents - if I am mistaken please just consider this a rambling of an overly excited newbie. Looking forward to learning more.