strange sword

[Patterson25]

Hello members,
Is it possible to have your opinion about this sword?
Thanks

[francantolin]

Hello and welcome to the forum,

Interesting sword but
Is it already in your hands ??

[Ian]

Hello Patterson25.

Thank you for posting this interesting sword. As Francantolin has queried whether this item is in your possession, I must ask you to confirm that you own this item. If it is presently for sale, then discussion here is not permitted. Please read the Forum Rules at the top of the Ethno Forum contents page.

Just let us know if it is up for sale now. I will close the thread until such time it has sold, then reopen it for discussion. Please let us know if it is still for sale. In the meanwhile I would ask that members refrain from responding until we know it is in your possession or otherwise sold.

Regards,
Ian.

[Patterson25]

Yes, I own the sword, of course, I know the rules of the forum.

[David R]

I like the hot-stamp which indicates an old original blade... mounts look Korean or Burmese. Feel free to mock, but not too unkindly please, I am drinking.

[RSWORD]

The circular stamped mark on the blade along with the ricasso and beveled edge leans me towards India as a possibility for the blade but obviously one that has a modified tip. The circular guard, long handle and pommel are not very Indian but could be something that came together in Nepal, Assam or one of the neighboring countries.

[Jim McDougall]

Im with you Rick, that cartouche with likely Urdu script in that quadrant of the forte is seen on Indian blades 18th c. into early 19th. The blade then rebated in accord with conventions in the regions mentioned Assam or Nepal or even further into SE Asia.....which of course leans toward Burma.

An unusual composite which presents lots of interesting possibilities.

[Patterson25]

I agree with you.
The tip of the Indian blade was cut off, with an old, aged patina.
I ended up in the same area too, Nagaland, Assam, India. Late 19 C.
I quote "The Naga people of the Nagaland in Assam, North East India use several types of swords, including a long Dao sword with a single edge blade, similar to blades of Tibet and Bhutan the neighbouring countries. These swords usually comes with an open side scabbard, like in the Dao sword offered here. This sword is most probably coming from the Angani Naga people".

[ausjulius]

These clipped type of blades are common among several ethnic groups in what is now the the modern provinces of Yunnan and Guangxi.
The tai/dai larger ethno group makes such swords.. many of the Zhuang people's swords have such a clipped tip..
The Bai in yunnan also make swords in this style.

[Patterson25]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

These clipped type of blades are common among several ethnic groups in what is now the the modern provinces of Yunnan and Guangxi.
The tai/dai larger ethno group makes such swords.. many of the Zhuang people's swords have such a clipped tip..
The Bai in yunnan also make swords in this style.

I went in that direction first, because of Muslim minorities there.
However the blade is Indian as noticed by rsword and mcDougal.
I don't even think the script is Arabic, but rather Urdu or Farsi...

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

I went in that direction first, because of Muslim minorities there.
However the blade is Indian as noticed by rsword and mcDougal.
I don't even think the script is Arabic, but rather Urdu or Farsi...

yep the blade doesn't match the sword thats for sure and does look indian to me..
but the shape and style is from that region.

[Ian]

An interesting composite sword. One wonders why and how a NE Indian/Pakistani blade came to be mounted in this unusal manner and where that occurred. One possibility is a traveler, moving from east to west, and that raises further questions about who that might be (Southern Asian, SE Asian, or European?) and why they would choose to mount the sword in this manner.

Some observations on the blade. I agree that it is most likely NE Indian/Pakistani. The fuller, ricasso, and heavy stamp mark have already been mentioned as most likely from that area. A square end to the blade would be most uncommon for that region. There seems to be consensus that the blade has been shortened to give it the square end. Some ethnic groups in NW India and neighboring areas have been mentioned as groups that use such square-ended blades, however the preference for such blade tips is almost exclusively on straight blades, not curved ones (there are uncommon exceptions on Thai/Lao blades, some Shan blades, and some southern Yunnan examples such as HuSa). The Kachin/Jingpaw in the more northern areas of Burma and Yunnan use only straight-bladed dha/dao with flat ends.

The dha/dao of NW India do not have guards and the length of their hilts on flat-ended blades is quite short (shorter than the hilt on the original post). Similarly, Burmese dha have relatively short hilts and no guard. Shan, Thai/Lao, Cambodian and Vietnamese daab/dao oftenhave longer hilts, and Southern Yunnan, Thai/Lao, Cambodian and Vietnamese swords can have disc guards (similar to the O.P.).

With respect to the hilt, I find it a little surprising that a smooth cylinder of turned wood has been used for the grip. This is not very practical because when such a grip is wet (as from blood or water) it becomes slippery and hard to hold. For this reason hilt surfaces are textured or wrapped in materials that give a firmer grip when wet. Also, a circular grip is the least stable in the hand and likely to twist while being used. Lastly is the small, nondescript pommel of ivory or bone, attached with a pin, that offers no clue to its ethnic origin. To me the hilt has some SE Asian/southern Chinese familiarity but I suspect its assembly had European influence also.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this sword looks most like some of the dao from Vietnam, notably the southern part. There was a lot of trade between Vietnamese ports and the south-eastern coast of India, thus ample opportunity for a sword from NE India to make its way to southern Vietnam. Sea travel would have been a much easier route than traversing India overland to reach SE Asia.

Iain Norman is our resident expert on SE Asian swords and I hope he will stop by and give his opinion here.

[Ian]

Here is a rotated and enLarged picture of the stamp on the ricasso. The blade appears to have some age in line with Jim's estimate. Anyone recognise the stamp? What is the likelihood that this could be a wootz blade? There are areas near the junction of the ricasso and sharpened edge that look promising, and if Jim's date estimate is correct then the chances are good.

.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this sword looks most like some of the dao from Vietnam, notably the southern part. There was a lot of trade between Vietnamese ports and the south-eastern coast of India, thus ample opportunity for a sword from NE India to make its way to southern Vietnam. Sea travel would have been a much easier route than traversing India overland to reach SE Asia.

Sorry Ian,

I am more with Rick (RSWORD) and Jim and think that this sword has its roots in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh but like always I could be wrong. Just my feeling.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

With respect to the hilt, I find it a little surprising that a smooth cylinder of turned wood has been used for the grip. This is not very practical because when such a grip is wet (as from blood or water) it becomes slippery and hard to hold. For this reason hilt surfaces are textured or wrapped in materials that give a firmer grip when wet. Also, a circular grip is the least stable in the hand and likely to twist while being used. Lastly is the small, nondescript pommel of ivory or bone, attached with a pin, that offers no clue to its ethnic origin. To me the hilt has some SE Asian/southern Chinese familiarity but I suspect its assembly had European influence also.

A handle wrapping could get lost over the years, special when it was from cloth.

[Bob A]

Is there any indication of a wrap having been in place on the hilt? Hord to judge from the photos above.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Bob A

Is there any indication of a wrap having been in place on the hilt? Hord to judge from the photos above.

I think that there could have been a wrapping but maybe it was lost long ago.

[Patterson25]

Hi Guys,

First thanks for your comments.
More details to help:
The hilt is made of metal, a tube covered by thick black lacquer.
The pommel is made of walrus ivory or mammoth teeth, and on top an old glass bead.
I posted this sword because it is a strange mix...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Hi Guys,

First thanks for your comments.
More details to help:
The hilt is made of metal, a tube covered by thick black lacquer.
The pommel is made of walrus ivory or mammoth teeth, and on top an old glass bead.
I posted this sword because it is a strange mix...

Can you provide some close-ups from the hilt and from the pommel please?

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Sorry Ian,

I am more with Rick (RSWORD) and Jim and think that this sword has its roots in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh but like always I could be wrong. Just my feeling.

Regards,
Detlef

Detlef, I respect your extensive knowledge of the SE Asian region and related areas. For that reason, I consulted every reference that I have on hand that is relevant to NE India and the Himalayan areas looking for any similar hilt.

The many and varied tribal groups making up Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradash present a challenge to identify particular sword types in the literature and there are few data from the 18th C. The lack of 18th C information may not be a major problem as several authors indicate that swords pre-1800 were similar to what was observed in the 1800s in the tribal areas. The most frequently encountered swords in NW India were guardless dao carried in an open-faced wooden scabbard or woven wicker sheath. Next most common were swords from (a) Bhutan and Tibet (with small round guards and short hilts) and (b) Burma (Kachin/Jingpho and Burman) which are guardless and have medium length hilts. Occasionally, Indian swords with Mughal tulwar-style hilts are seen, but these seem confined to the more affluent and powerful members of the NW Indian groups. Mention is also made of Chinese swords but these were among the tribal groups in the most northern and remote areas of Arunachal Pradesh.

The hilt on the O.P. here has a fairly large circular guard and longish hilt. The O.P.'s hilt is not typical of Burmese, Kachin, Bhutanese, Tibetan or Chinese styles.

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Patterson25

Hi Guys,

First thanks for your comments.
More details to help:
The hilt is made of metal, a tube covered by thick black lacquer.
The pommel is made of walrus ivory or mammoth teeth, and on top an old glass bead.
I posted this sword because it is a strange mix...

Patterson25, this is important information that was omitted earlier. If you are looking for an answer for this unusual sword, then it helps to have all the data. Additional information that would be useful is the length of the hilt and blade, and the blade width and thickness at the hilt and tip. Also, does the blade taper in thickness from ricasso to tip.

The presence of a cylindrical metal grip is significant. Is this metal iron (magnetic) or non-ferrous (non-magnetic)? The covering with "lacquer" implies the use of a resin that may have been "tacky" originally and perhaps aided grip oif the hilt. It may also have added some protection of the hilt from wear and tear or other damage. The use of black resin was common in parts of mainland SE Asia, perhaps also to improve the grip or conceal any reflections from the hilt materials. It was widely used on wooden scabbards as well.

I had two Vietnamese swords that were heavily endowed with black resin over the grip, and similar use of resin on some Thai, Lao, and Cambodian swords. All of these examples had an underlying wrap (rattan strips, metal wire, occasionally brass fittings) over a wooden core.

Resin is also seen on the grips of some NW Indian groups, and the Naga are a notable group with resin on the grip of their traditional dao. These grips tend to have a hard, smooth, and often shiny appearance.

As far as the material of the pommel, if this is marine ivory then that might favor an origin close to the coast rather than the landlocked areas of NE India, Bhutan, and Tibet. Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between elephant ivory and marine ivory. A fossilized mammoth tooth seems unlikely..

[SidJ]

This came up at auction in the UK recently. I had doubts about it myself as I could not place it so stayed away

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef, I respect your extensive knowledge of the SE Asian region and related areas. For that reason, I consulted every reference that I have on hand that is relevant to NE India and the Himalayan areas looking for any similar hilt.

The many and varied tribal groups making up Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradash present a challenge to identify particular sword types in the literature and there are few data from the 18th C. The lack of 18th C information may not be a major problem as several authors indicate that swords pre-1800 were similar to what was observed in the 1800s in the tribal areas. The most frequently encountered swords in NW India were guardless dao carried in an open-faced wooden scabbard or woven wicker sheath. Next most common were swords from (a) Bhutan and Tibet (with small round guards and short hilts) and (b) Burma (Kachin/Jingpho and Burman) which are guardless and have medium length hilts. Occasionally, Indian swords with Mughal tulwar-style hilts are seen, but these seem confined to the more affluent and powerful members of the NW Indian groups. Mention is also made of Chinese swords but these were among the tribal groups in the most northern and remote areas of Arunachal Pradesh.

The hilt on the O.P. here has a fairly large circular guard and longish hilt. The O.P.'s hilt is not typical of Burmese, Kachin, Bhutanese, Tibetan or Chinese styles.

Detlef, if you still feel this hilt is from NE India then please show me another example from that area with a similar hilt. Otherwise, with the greatest respect, I think we need to look elsewhere.

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by SidJ

I had doubts about it myself as I could not place it so stayed away

Hi Sid,

Aren't the oddballs not more interesting than the textbook examples? For me for sure!

Regards,
Detlef

[Tim Simmons]

Only if the fake shouters and oh its a fit up keep it to themselves.

[SidJ]

Detlef
In a honest world I'd go for oddballs for sure. But in a world where dealers and other dodgy folk interfere with pieces to add value and make a quick buck it's a hard no from me I'm afraid. I""ve been burnt before so am not prepared to lose further. Frankenstein pieces don't interest me. Not saying this is one but the jury's out it seems.

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Only if the fake shouters and oh its a fit up keep it to themselves.

Interesting comment. Not sure why you want to stifle opinion and discussion but it seems an odd thing to say.

[Patterson25]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

Thx a lot for your respect! I know a former owner of this sword and have discussed it some years ago with this person, it's travelled a little bit in the last few years. Let me say first a little bit about the handle materials, the tubular hilt isn't from metal (it don't will react magnetic) but from lacquered wood, the pommel is with some certain not from ivory (it was guessed that it's from an early plastic (cellulose, bakelite or so on) and for the disc guard is used the disc of a tulwar pommel. Sorry Patterson25 that I need to correct you!
The previous owner with whom I discussed this sword before as well as the owner who put it to auction and discussed it with other collectors guessed the from me given origin. The sword is an oddball for sure and I think that nobody will be able to say for sure from where exactly it is coming. My guess is as good as your one. We only can give educated guesses. Someone made for himself or someone else a sword from parts, a long time ago.

With the same respect you given to me ,
Detlef

Sorry Detlef to correct you - but did you have the sword in hand? The tubular hilt is not made of wood but made of metal, it sounds like metal and I will post of photo where you can see a vertical line showing the joint line.
I'm new to the forum and I will be happy to hear something informative or new to me.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by SidJ

Not saying this is one but the jury's out it seems.

It came to my friend in the shown condition and I trust my friend when he says that it had been "installed" this way for a long time.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by SidJ

Interesting comment. Not sure why you want to stifle opinion and discussion but it seems an odd thing to say.

Agreed!