Sandbar Bowie?

[kronckew]

Jim's brother had a knife made for Jim that has been described as a large kitchen knife. this has been converted into the numerous variants we call 'Bowie' knives, usually over 6in. clip point blade & a cross guard. My most recent Bowie seems to be more of the 'Sandbar' type, so I will think of it as one. 10" blade, worn stag handle, razor sharp main edge and the clip is also razor sharp.

[Jim McDougall]

Great topic Wayne! and very nice example of a 'Bowie', one of the most ubiquitous and legendary knives ever! Seldom discussed here, so wanted to add what I can, sort of a treasured subject, years ago lots of research.

While obviously not an early example, and atypical to what is generally held as a 'Bowie', these typically are large blade, clipped point, cross guard, and usually a choil at blade edge root......in going through references there does seem to be suggestion this might indeed be in essence similar to the 'sandbar'.

There is so much apocryphal lore about the Bowie knife itself and of course James Bowie who became a folk hero after the 1827 'Vidalia sandbar' fight near Natchez, Miss. that it has become virtually impossible to isolate fact from the abundant fiction. The most notorious proponent of the fanciful lore that is IMO worthy of Jules Verne was Raymond Thorpe,in his "Bowie Knife" (1949) and cannot even begin to touch the hyperbole here.

One of the most comprehensive books loaded with fantastic illustrations is "The Bowie Knife" by the late Norm Flayderman, 2004. It seems that Jims brother Rezin had a knife for hunting apparently made by a blacksmith near his location in Avoyelles Parish in Louisiana. Jim had been in some trouble with a guy in some of their 'dealings' and he wanted him to have it for self defense. The opportunity came up in the famed sandbar duel in 1827, in which he came out victorious despite being badly wounded.

His fame traveled fast, and some time later while recovering, he met a well known stage celebrity known for his theatrics, loud public quarrels, large custom made weapons often oversize for his performances...Edwin Forrest (1806-1872).
Bowie sent him a knife, which Bowie said in a letter accompanying that THIS was the notorious knife the newspapers were so excited about, and thought he might like to add it to his collection. According to Bernard Levine, in his "Knives and Their Values, 4th Ed." 1985, p,320, he notes this knife does not seem professionally made, and suggests he is satisfied with its authenticity.

While this goes to the 'Sandbar' knife, the fabled knife from the Alamo is yet another mystery!!

In the pics note the 'butcher knife' like knife said to have been Bowies at the Sandbar fight. Then look at the Gilliam/Noble version early Bowie, no guard.
the panel of examples is from Robert Abels collection c. 1960s. Note #5 which is open hilt style Bowie hunting knife, Seattle c. 1900.

In a most esoteric article in the now defunct "Arms Gazette" (March 1977) "The Spanish Notch" by W.R.Williamson; it describes the curious notch (choil) at the base of the blade edge on the knives of this general shape (butcher knife etc) known as Meditteranean or Spanish dirks. These were prevalent with sailors on vessels and it has never been entirely explained what these were for.
The author notes a news ad from the 'MEXICAN CITIZEN", Feb. 12,1833, in San Felipe de Austin, Texas that a shipment of cutlery from Collins & Co. had been received by merchant Lewis Veeder including hatchets, butcher knives, pen knives and Spanish dirks. This was of course the center where James Bowie, Stephen Austin, William Travis were situated, of course three years prior to the Alamo.

interestingly, Sheffield had been supplying knives to US even before 1812, and by 1826 the first full fledged factory completed (William Greaves & Son) and the early Bowie trade began shortly after the Sandbar. Even the well known Wostenholm , Rockingham Works was producing the I*XL knives by 1830. (Levine op. cit p.323).

My example, Mexican Bowie......hilt of chiollo cactus, found in Tucson years ago, probably from late 40s to 50s.

[Interested Party]

First, two questions if someone had the answers: 1) Did the early Bowies made like kitchen knives have distal tapers, were they on the blade and/or tang? 2) For that matter did the trade knives shaped like butcher knives have distal taper?

Second, here are some pages, I thought might be good to put with this discussion, from Gordon B. Minnis 1983 book American Primitive Knives 1770-1870. The author dates the examples these examples from 1830s to 1860s and had some theories on the regions they were produced in. I am particularly fond of the examples that have a central ridge like katanas and X-XII century central Asian sabers to lighten the blade on pages 72 and 78.

[kronckew]

Just aquired a spearpoint Bowie.

16 in.LOA.
5.75 in. stag crown grip, one brass pin. Looks old & has wear.
2 in. wide razor sharp blade just ahead of the set back ricasso. 3.5 in. wide oval guard.
Spine has a 4 in. unsharpened false edge.
.25 in. thick at the ricasso, distal tapering down to about .125 in. near the tip.
weight: 1.19 lb.
No markings.


I'll let y'all convert that to metric if you want.


Any idea on its origin and/or age wold be appreciated. Thanks.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

First, two questions if someone had the answers: 1) Did the early Bowies made like kitchen knives have distal tapers, were they on the blade and/or tang? 2) For that matter did the trade knives shaped like butcher knives have distal taper?

Second, here are some pages, I thought might be good to put with this discussion, from Gordon B. Minnis 1983 book American Primitive Knives 1770-1870. The author dates the examples these examples from 1830s to 1860s and had some theories on the regions they were produced in. I am particularly fond of the examples that have a central ridge like katanas and X-XII century central Asian sabers to lighten the blade on pages 72 and 78.

Just noticed I.P., nobody thanked you for sharing these great pages from this book, which are loaded with info! Thank you, my bad!
Its so much appreciated when people add references and detail like this!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Just aquired a spearpoint Bowie.

16 in.LOA.
5.75 in. stag crown grip, one brass pin. Looks old & has wear.
2 in. wide razor sharp blade just ahead of the set back ricasso. 3.5 in. wide oval guard.
Spine has a 4 in. unsharpened false edge.
.25 in. thick at the ricasso, distal tapering down to about .125 in. near the tip.
weight: 1.19 lb.
No markings.


I'll let y'all convert that to metric if you want.

Any idea on its origin and/or age wold be appreciated. Thanks.

Hello Wayne,

Very nice knife! Looks like a late 19th century or early 20th century Bowie to my eyes. I guess it's from England.

Regards,
Detlef

[kronckew]

Sajen, I concurr.


Did some googling. Looks a lot like a spear point bowie by George Butler, Sheffield - probably late 19c. The std. ones he made are marked on the side of the blade, but his standard models were only up to 8 in. blades. I also found he made custom blanks for others to haft. And he'd make unmarked customs as requested by customers & was known for making non-standard ones. Appears he normally used a full tang/slab sides with 5 pins for stag grips, but not for larger crown stag grips.


I contacted the vendor of mine, & they said they thought it was German.late 19c-early 20th.


p.s. - Ijust noted i'd forgot to list the blade length on mine it's 10.25 in. - i.e. non-standard.



Picture is of one I found at a past auction, marked as Butler, 1860. note the false edge and recessed Picasso - dead ringer for my new bowie. Found a couple more of his std. spearpoints like this, just in worse condition.

[Sajen]

Equally if it's English or German, it's a very nice bowie!

[Jim McDougall]

The actual title here concerns the 'actual' type knife used at the legendary 'Sandbar' fight, which took place on a sandbar in the Mississippi river between Vidalia and Natchez Mississippi on Sept.19th, 1827.

Actually a duel with pistols between two men, with Bowie as second to one, and there were a total of 15 men present. There were distinct political and other differences between both factions of these men. When shots were fired without consequence, dissent broke out among the rest of the men, and a huge free for all ensued.
Bowie himself was shot and stabbed 5 times, with a sword cane actually lodged in him as the fight went on. Though wounded, he killed his attacker with his large knife, and severely wounded several others. At the end of the chaos, there were two killed and four badly wounded.

It seems that James' brother Rezin knew he was going to the 'meeting' (dueling was illegal, which may have been part of the choice of location) and gave him a large knife 'just in case'. The knife is believed made by Daniel Searles of Baton Rouge, who made several knives for Rezin. As with many knives of the time, it was likely made from a file, and looked like a large butcher knife, no guard.

With all the sensationalizing in news, the fight brought Bowie instant fame, and men ordering frontier knives from makers all wanted , 'a knife LIKE Bowies's'. Soon makers began adding that caption to large bladed knives, though the eponym BOWIE knife actually was not that widely known during most of the century.
Even the Alamo was not the center of Bowie knife fame, though a number of examples by mid to latter 19th c. had 'Remember the Alamo' motto on blades.

In "Man at Arms" (Vol. 25,#2, 2003) "A Biased British View of the Bowie", by F.J.Wilkinson ;
Regarding an article written in 1843 in a British magazine:
"...the writer concludes that in the future, whenever there is mention of the Bowie knives it is as well to remember they were probably manufactured by a British mechanic and sold by British merchants. A moral ending to an article that gives a brief but fascinating look at one aspect of life in America. It is perhaps of interest to note that James Bowie is not mentioned at all and neither is the Alamo, despite the anti Mexican feelings expressed. Even the famous fight at Natchez is credited to Rezin".

To reiterate my earlier post, the knife pictured is the one said to have been given to actor Edwin Forrest by Jim Bowie according to descendants of Bowie,
There is so much hyperbole surrounding the Bowie knife by writers from later in 19th through 1940s when Thorpe wrote "The Iron Mistress" and the Alan Ladd movie; then the Alamo movies that fact and fiction are hopelessly entwined.