Lao Dha/daab

[Ian]

I hope a side question is ok while we wait for comments. Have we discussed these common markings? They are, of course, very present on tourist pieces from Thailand and I usually take it as a bad sign when I see them. However, you do see them on clearly authentic, and old pieces, as the case with this sword.

Jeff,

I think you are correct to be cautious about some of these marklngs. The flowing sinusoidal waves on the original post in this thread are very traditional decorative traits, mainly associated with northern Thai/Lao blades but occasionally seen more widely (such as on "Montagnard" examples). Swords and knives with these markings have functional blades (I have not seen an example with a clearly poor blade) and I don't think of them as designed to be tourist pieces.

On the other hand, low quality tourist blades often have the features shown on Detlef's vintage example (clearly not a low grade blade): namely, the lightly engraved lines running parallel to the spine and elongated S-shapes that resemble integration signs used in calculus. The latter, often punched in groups somewhat randomly along the blade, occur a lot on the poorly tempered blades of tourist swords that were sold to GIs during the Vietnam war (1960s and 1970s), and subsequently. These are the marks that raise suspicions about quality (Detlef's nice older example is the exception). Hence, Iain's caution about looking at the whole sword is very well placed.

Regards, Ian.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

On the other hand, low quality tourist blades often have the features shown on Detlef's vintage example (clearly not a low grade blade): ......

Hi Ian,

I don't think that my sword is vintage, I think that it's from the early 20th century, maybe older. I guess Northern Thailand, Lampang region. Attached a pic from the spine with brass inlay and the "turtle" mark on the other side.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hi Detlef,

You could be correct about the age of your sword. Always hard to judge age of these items from pictures.

I tend to be conservative about the markings on your sword that I described earlier in this thread, because I have only seen them on swords that I would consider post-WWII in manufacture. Similarly, I've not seen the "turtle" mark or those spine markings on "antique" swords. Always willing to be proven wrong.

Also, please note that I use the term "vintage" for items 50-99 years old, and reserve "antique" for 100+ years old. Thus, "vintage" includes part of the period you describe.

Regards, Ian.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Also, please note that I use the term "vintage" for items 50-99 years old, and reserve "antique" for 100+ years old. Thus, "vintage" includes part of the period you describe.

Hi Ian,

Thank you for clarification!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Similarly, I've not seen the "turtle" mark or those spine markings on "antique" swords. Always willing to be proven wrong.

Hi Ian,

So far I know is this turtle mark (so is this marking called by collectors in South-East-Asia) an old mark from this region, here are a few examples.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hi Detlef,

The "turtle mark" was discussed in the old UBB Forum on this site, but unfortunately that platform was hacked and the files corrupted. IIRC, the mark was thought to be found on northern Thai/Lao daab starting in the 20th C, around the 1920s or so. It also extended into the 1970s and later on the poor quality tourist swords that U.S. Vietnam vets and other travelers brought home.

As I look at the three latest examples you posted, I would say the top one is probably post-WWII, the bottom one maybe WWII-era or thereaboiuts, and the middle one (a nice Lao daab) maybe pre-WWII). However, my earlier caveat about dating these daab from pictures applies--it is very difficult to estimate age without having them in hand, and even then not easy. My approximate ranking of their ages would still put them in my "vintage" category.

Iain Norman may have more information about these.

Regards, Ian.

[kronckew]

As far as I understand the turtle mark is a well known mark from as far back as the early 19thc possibly a bit before, and the swords shown in the last pics by Detlef are both later 19thc productions, and the silver one is not from Laos its a typical Lanna Thai sword in Lanna Thai silver dress - mounts from north Siam - Thailand.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

The "turtle mark" was discussed in the old UBB Forum on this site, but unfortunately that platform was hacked and the files corrupted. IIRC, the mark was thought to be found on northern Thai/Lao daab starting in the 20th C, around the 1920s or so. It also extended into the 1970s and later on the poor quality tourist swords that U.S. Vietnam vets and other travelers brought home.

Hi Ian,

I never have never seen the turtle mark on the blades from these tourist swords from the 70s.!?

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Detlef,

In a very old thread, Contemporary Thai daab, on the UBB platform (now gone) there were examples of the turtle stamp on daab brought back by US Vietnam War vets. I will see if I can find an example in my files. That thread was posted more than 20 years ago and is still referenced in the Classic Threads shown at the top of the Ethno Forum contents page. Unfortunately, you will get a "404" message if you click on the link.

Regards, Ian.