Schiavona pommel - Page 2

dralin23 · 22nd June 2025, 05:28 PM

The handles on Shaivona swords are indeed quite varied. Some have a hole in the end of the handle, which is connected to the handle basket by a hook, which gives it additional stability. However, most of the handles I've seen on these swords don't have this hook, even though the curved end on the basket handle is present on almost all swords.

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2025, 08:36 PM

Thank you Dralin for posting these examples, which really illustrate the broad scope of the schiavona hilt form, far beyond the confines of Venice as long generally held.

The first example with the unusual helmeted figure, any ideas on what this might represent?
The basket character on these hilts of course follows the basic trellis pattern, but with often subtle variations that have enabled some degree of classification. But the pommels are another story!

Also, on the last example, with the thumb ring, does this suggest European origin? Germany, Austria? The flammard blade is also unusual!

dralin23 · 24th June 2025, 07:51 PM

hello jim,
Thank you for your response to my post. I'll try to give you or anyone else interested some more information about the two Shiavonas.
The first Shiavona is certainly something special, as I've rarely seen it in this form. I think it was made for an officer, and the hilt end was also custom-made.
The blade probably comes from an Austrian saber, although the dating suggests that the blade is probably older than the hilt. According to the well-known overview of hilt shapes for Shiavona swords, this sword is around the eighth pattern, which is dated 1780-1797...
But all in all, it is certainly an exceptional sword, and it would certainly be interesting to learn something about its original owner and his history.

The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed.
The blade is signed on one side with "Francisco" and on the other side with "En Toledo."
It was supposed to imitate a Spanish blade made by Francisco in Toledo. However, the engraved running wolves, which are engraved opposite to the direction of the writing, suggest something else. To me, they indicate that it is a Solingen blade made in the mid-17th century.
It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust.
I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion. If anyone has further information about this, I would be very grateful.

urbanspaceman · 25th June 2025, 10:08 PM

That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too.
I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf.
Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

dralin23 · 29th June 2025, 04:42 PM

Hello
As far as I know, the Munsten family was also active in Solingen. I don't know the history of this family exactly, so I can't start a discussion about it.
As far as I know, however, the craftsmen of Shortley Bridge chose a running fox as their mark, which was very different from the running wolf.
If you look at the wolf on the Shiavona blade and compare it with the overview of the Passau wolves, you can clearly see that the blade's mark is similar in shape and style to the mark on the page that deals with the history of the Passau wolf. It's the last 3, and it suggests that the blade could date from the 16th-17th century.
The Solingen blacksmiths, just like the English blacksmiths, probably liked to falsify their names or marks to pretend they came from a specific workshop, for example, "Toledo."
The most famous and longest-lived bladesmith is probably Andrea Ferrera!
He forged many thousands of swords and even changed the spelling of his name from time to time...
I think this flamed blade was made by a good blacksmith from Solingen and that he signed it with the pseudonym "Francesco."

Interested Party · 29th June 2025, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed......It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust.
I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion..

It looks like a heavy thrusting blade compared to a rapier. I think of it less as a flamed blade and closer to a serrated blade. Against an unarmored opponent or a person in quilted armor, the serrations would have been very nasty as draw or push cuts in a bind. Taking away a faster blades mobility and using this blade's weight to move the other blade would have been advantageous. Not a chopping motion or the type of draw cut that a tulwar uses, more like carving a turkey. I think Keith's Shotley Bridge cutting edge colichemardes may have used this technique as well (I would love to have the chance to feel one of these and will definitely be on the lookout for one). Also grabbing this blade to control it would have been a bad idea. Then there is the heavy pommel and basket guard for striking. It would be a long blade that was dangerous if you closed the distance. Just theories....

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2025, 07:27 PM

Looking more into these fascinating examples, which are anomalies of the spectrum of schiavona examples.
The first is with the trellis form of the basket consistent with latter 18th c. and embellished with the gold metal fluerets at each square of the basket seeming to correspond with other highly embellished sword hilts of this period. The helmeted figure appears to represent some important military figure with the mustache and what appears to be Austro-German cuirassiers helmet of 18thc.

As discussed the blade seems much earlier and corresponding to the date 1713, with the No. seeming to be either unit designation and the R part of that rather than a spurious regal cypher. This would seem to be a heirloom blade that has been remounted by an officer with a commemorative theme in mind.

The next example is especially intriguing with the undulating flammard blade, which seems highly unusual for these swords, and seem uncommon for typical Solingen trade blades.

The running wolf mark is properly configured for Solingen examples as it is inverted next to the wording adjacent on the blade.

A few notes on the Munstens.....There seem to have been two Peter Munstens, according to Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, p315-16) with one being referred to as the younger, however his dates 1580-1629 are contemporary to the other Peter Munsten, (1552-1628) who was mayor of Soiingen in addition to being a maker, and referred to as 'the elder'.

The first Peter Munsten (the younger) may have been a cadet branch of the family, and used the Madonna and Child as a mark. He went to London and entered the Hounslow enterprise, signing his blades with ME FECIT LONDON, but changed his name to PETER ENGLISH.

Meanwhile, the other Peter Munsten, situated in Solingen, is most likely to have perhaps used the running wolf on some of his blades. There was no specific association or presence of this marking to certain makers in either Solingen nor Passau, where the mark originated.

This was likely a totemic type marking from ancient European times which evolved into a more talismanic/magic/ occult device which eventually evolved past those connotations and became a kind of quality symbol. Solingen, in its clever and astute adoption of renowned names, symbols and phrases used them spuriously on their blades to appeal to markets in the trade networks.

The most commonly used markings, names etc were from the legendary works in Toledo, and the use of Spanish makers names such as Tomas de Aiala, Sebastian Hernandez, Sahagum and others often appear on Solingen blades. Certain Solingen smiths even worked in Toledo, strengthening the associations.

In the case of this schiavona with flammard blade, it is of course from Solingen, maker unknown, but certainly of high quality as these type blades were not randomly produced for trade markets. The name Francesco is simply the Christian name of one of the number of Toledo smiths of 17th century (however in Italian usage) used to imply that status. Toledo did not use the running wolf, nor did any of the Italian states.

Good note on ANDREA FERARA, whose NAME prolifically appeared on countless blades, mostly in Scotland, for well over a century after his death. While there appears to have actually been such a person in Belluno Italy c. 1580, myths and lore have him appearing in Spain and Scotland, which was never the case. The fact that his name linguistically associated with 'good,true iron/steel' gave it the impetus to become more a trademark.
The variations in spellings of these names obviously is due to the literacy and skill of the workers applying them.

22nd June 2025, 05:28 PM	#31
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 209	some other swordpommels at shiavona swords.. The handles on Shaivona swords are indeed quite varied. Some have a hole in the end of the handle, which is connected to the handle basket by a hook, which gives it additional stability. However, most of the handles I've seen on these swords don't have this hook, even though the curved end on the basket handle is present on almost all swords. Attached Images

24th June 2025, 07:51 PM	#33
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 209	hello jim, Thank you for your response to my post. I'll try to give you or anyone else interested some more information about the two Shiavonas. The first Shiavona is certainly something special, as I've rarely seen it in this form. I think it was made for an officer, and the hilt end was also custom-made. The blade probably comes from an Austrian saber, although the dating suggests that the blade is probably older than the hilt. According to the well-known overview of hilt shapes for Shiavona swords, this sword is around the eighth pattern, which is dated 1780-1797... But all in all, it is certainly an exceptional sword, and it would certainly be interesting to learn something about its original owner and his history. The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed. The blade is signed on one side with "Francisco" and on the other side with "En Toledo." It was supposed to imitate a Spanish blade made by Francisco in Toledo. However, the engraved running wolves, which are engraved opposite to the direction of the writing, suggest something else. To me, they indicate that it is a Solingen blade made in the mid-17th century. It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust. I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion. If anyone has further information about this, I would be very grateful. Attached Images

25th June 2025, 10:08 PM	#34
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 636	Wolf That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too. I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf. Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

29th June 2025, 04:42 PM	#35
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 209	the wolf mark at these shiavona Hello As far as I know, the Munsten family was also active in Solingen. I don't know the history of this family exactly, so I can't start a discussion about it. As far as I know, however, the craftsmen of Shortley Bridge chose a running fox as their mark, which was very different from the running wolf. If you look at the wolf on the Shiavona blade and compare it with the overview of the Passau wolves, you can clearly see that the blade's mark is similar in shape and style to the mark on the page that deals with the history of the Passau wolf. It's the last 3, and it suggests that the blade could date from the 16th-17th century. The Solingen blacksmiths, just like the English blacksmiths, probably liked to falsify their names or marks to pretend they came from a specific workshop, for example, "Toledo." The most famous and longest-lived bladesmith is probably Andrea Ferrera! He forged many thousands of swords and even changed the spelling of his name from time to time... I think this flamed blade was made by a good blacksmith from Solingen and that he signed it with the pseudonym "Francesco." Attached Images

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22nd June 2025, 08:36 PM	#32
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,337	Thank you Dralin for posting these examples, which really illustrate the broad scope of the schiavona hilt form, far beyond the confines of Venice as long generally held. The first example with the unusual helmeted figure, any ideas on what this might represent? The basket character on these hilts of course follows the basic trellis pattern, but with often subtle variations that have enabled some degree of classification. But the pommels are another story! Also, on the last example, with the thumb ring, does this suggest European origin? Germany, Austria? The flammard blade is also unusual!

29th June 2025, 07:27 PM	#37
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,337	Looking more into these fascinating examples, which are anomalies of the spectrum of schiavona examples. The first is with the trellis form of the basket consistent with latter 18th c. and embellished with the gold metal fluerets at each square of the basket seeming to correspond with other highly embellished sword hilts of this period. The helmeted figure appears to represent some important military figure with the mustache and what appears to be Austro-German cuirassiers helmet of 18thc. As discussed the blade seems much earlier and corresponding to the date 1713, with the No. seeming to be either unit designation and the R part of that rather than a spurious regal cypher. This would seem to be a heirloom blade that has been remounted by an officer with a commemorative theme in mind. The next example is especially intriguing with the undulating flammard blade, which seems highly unusual for these swords, and seem uncommon for typical Solingen trade blades. The running wolf mark is properly configured for Solingen examples as it is inverted next to the wording adjacent on the blade. A few notes on the Munstens.....There seem to have been two Peter Munstens, according to Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, p315-16) with one being referred to as the younger, however his dates 1580-1629 are contemporary to the other Peter Munsten, (1552-1628) who was mayor of Soiingen in addition to being a maker, and referred to as 'the elder'. The first Peter Munsten (the younger) may have been a cadet branch of the family, and used the Madonna and Child as a mark. He went to London and entered the Hounslow enterprise, signing his blades with ME FECIT LONDON, but changed his name to PETER ENGLISH. Meanwhile, the other Peter Munsten, situated in Solingen, is most likely to have perhaps used the running wolf on some of his blades. There was no specific association or presence of this marking to certain makers in either Solingen nor Passau, where the mark originated. This was likely a totemic type marking from ancient European times which evolved into a more talismanic/magic/ occult device which eventually evolved past those connotations and became a kind of quality symbol. Solingen, in its clever and astute adoption of renowned names, symbols and phrases used them spuriously on their blades to appeal to markets in the trade networks. The most commonly used markings, names etc were from the legendary works in Toledo, and the use of Spanish makers names such as Tomas de Aiala, Sebastian Hernandez, Sahagum and others often appear on Solingen blades. Certain Solingen smiths even worked in Toledo, strengthening the associations. In the case of this schiavona with flammard blade, it is of course from Solingen, maker unknown, but certainly of high quality as these type blades were not randomly produced for trade markets. The name Francesco is simply the Christian name of one of the number of Toledo smiths of 17th century (however in Italian usage) used to imply that status. Toledo did not use the running wolf, nor did any of the Italian states. Good note on ANDREA FERARA, whose NAME prolifically appeared on countless blades, mostly in Scotland, for well over a century after his death. While there appears to have actually been such a person in Belluno Italy c. 1580, myths and lore have him appearing in Spain and Scotland, which was never the case. The fact that his name linguistically associated with 'good,true iron/steel' gave it the impetus to become more a trademark. The variations in spellings of these names obviously is due to the literacy and skill of the workers applying them.