Schiavona pommel

[ulfberth]

the use of the hole is to attach the guard , i would not buy a shiavona with an exact blade as in your picture because that is a 19th c blade.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm afraid you have me confused. Which is a 19thC blade?

[ulfberth]

the last schiavona you posted

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

the last schiavona you posted

That is a surprise!
I am still learning. Any possibility you could explain what indicates its age? To my inexperienced eye it looks just like the earlier images I posted (one of which was yours, by-the-way).

[Triarii]

My Schiavona has a waisted ricasso with leather cover. Its made me think what the scabbard would butt up against. Likely the chamfered end of the blade just before the waisted section I suppose.

[Jim McDougall]

These two schiavona are IMO with 19th c. German blades which are similar to those used in Sudan on the kaskara broadswords in latter 19th c. It seems these central tri fuller blades were produced in various shops in Solingen, it seems in notable volume, and were unmarked 'blanks', seemingly intended for colonial markets.

One of the things that seem regularly noted in many studies on swords, is that the blades are regarded as 'secondary' elements of identification. That is, as noted in Norman (1980), his focus was on hilt forms, providing scheduled classifications by period and numbered. ...no attention was given to blades as these were often interchanged as required or favored.

There are so many variables in the presence of atypical blades mounted in familiar hilt forms that outside of distinct provenance, speculations abound.

With rapier blades for example, by analogy, in India in cases of familiar sword forms such as the gauntlet sword (pata) and khanda (Hindu basket hilt) there are examples on occasion with rapier blades. These are total anomalies as in Indian swordsmanship there is no use for the thrust, so clearly the use of such blades was purely in accord with European presence.

In the case of schiavona, they were of course used widely outside the sphere of Venice, and traditionally in place over many years. It would stand to reason that various blades might be used unconditionally mounted in old hilts which were valued in heirloom or traditional sense. In Mann(1962, Wallace Coll.) there are many sword forms shown with blades much more recent than the old hilts on which they were mounted.

With the pommels, it seems to me that the holes were as seen, typically for the placement of a ring to hold the guard. While it is tempting to think of them being vestigally in some sort of symbolic sense, it is more likely it is simply the reuse of an old pommel in typical refurbishing circumstances.


Images previously posted, blades referenced,
a kaskara with familiar central tri fuller ,blades often termed masri in Sudan, in cases where native smiths, usually Hausa, copied European examples.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These two schiavona are IMO with 19th c. German blades which are similar to those used in Sudan on the kaskara broadswords in latter 19th c. It seems these central tri fuller blades were produced in various shops in Solingen, it seems in notable volume, and were unmarked 'blanks', seemingly intended for colonial markets.

One of the things that seem regularly noted in many studies on swords, is that the blades are regarded as 'secondary' elements of identification. That is, as noted in Norman (1980), his focus was on hilt forms, providing scheduled classifications by period and numbered. ...no attention was given to blades as these were often interchanged as required or favored.

There are so many variables in the presence of atypical blades mounted in familiar hilt forms that outside of distinct provenance, speculations abound.

With rapier blades for example, by analogy, in India in cases of familiar sword forms such as the gauntlet sword (pata) and khanda (Hindu basket hilt) there are examples on occasion with rapier blades. These are total anomalies as in Indian swordsmanship there is no use for the thrust, so clearly the use of such blades was purely in accord with European presence.

In the case of schiavona, they were of course used widely outside the sphere of Venice, and traditionally in place over many years. It would stand to reason that various blades might be used unconditionally mounted in old hilts which were valued in heirloom or traditional sense. In Mann(1962, Wallace Coll.) there are many sword forms shown with blades much more recent than the old hilts on which they were mounted.

With the pommels, it seems to me that the holes were as seen, typically for the placement of a ring to hold the guard. While it is tempting to think of them being vestigally in some sort of symbolic sense, it is more likely it is simply the reuse of an old pommel in typical refurbishing circumstances.

Jim has already explained it , as he has shown above the two shiavona's are fitted with 19th c kaskara blades made in Germany " spot on Jim !"
That specific form and shape of blade and cross section was not used in the 16the and 17th c , there were similar looking blades but there are major differences for the experienced collector.
It this particular schiavona that came from my collection but it has a totaly different blade