A koummya- and contexts

kahnjar1 · 28th March 2025, 02:53 AM

Re RobT.s comment above......the fact this has no quillons does not preclude it's use as a weapon. I have not seen ANY Koummya that have TRUE quillons. Some have a shaped grip but more often than not, are similar to the example shown by Jim. As far as being used as a weapon goes, I'm sure that they have been in the past (and possibly still are). I should add that there are many examples of tourist items being offered for sale on a well known website and it's just a case of the buyer being aware if a genuine old item is sought.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2025, 11:47 AM

Thanks for answering Stu, and well noted on these areas. What I have found interesting on these distinctively made blades is the cutting edge on the inside of curve. This was in my opinion for slashing cut, and in these kinds of uses would not require quillon or hand guard. Most janbiyyas I have seen are without notable guard elements.

As with most edged weapons which have become dress or ceremonially worn, just as court swords have become, most evolved in degree from fully combative forms, but have become less pragmatically designed and accordingly more decorated.
I think this is what Rob refers to, and as you point out, as I mentioned, it seems there are profound numbers of these which are pretty clearly 'souk' items offered. What attracted me on this one was its solid and hefty character and the well made blade.

One thing I was looking at is that the scabbard is decorated fully on both sides, where of course there are examples void of decoration on the inside. Is there any rule of thumb as to either of these instances pointing to souvenir vs. authentic traditionally worn?

Marc M. · 28th March 2025, 03:36 PM

Hi Jim
Congratulations on your first koumiya. I got to know koumiyas in the late 1990s when an exhibition on Morocco was taking place at the Africa Museum. The catalogue of the exhibition did not provide any information about these objects beyond 3 photos. Books about these knives are rare and expensive so knowledge about the koumiya was fairly non-existent. That changed somewhat with joining the forum, lots of info make that I found 3 reasonably good koumiya's, all already posted. What is decisive for me is the blade. With the right dimensions and especially the thickness of the blade, you are already well placed to make the distinction and the general shape and finish of the blade is also important. It is easier to hold it in your hand than to decide from a distance. In the case of a koumiya I try to bend the blade by hand, it stays crookedl, low quality and usually tourist grade, a good steel blade returns to the position before bending. Each of us will have a way of judging a blade.
Regards
Marc

Pertinax · 28th March 2025, 05:59 PM

An excerpt from the book Armes anciennes du Maroc - Bijoux de parade de Hans F. WAELTY, can be downloaded here:

https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc..._selection.pdf

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2025, 06:10 PM

Wonderful input Marc! thank you and for the kind words!
After a lifetime of collecting and studying arms and armor, it feels odd to be such a novice in these, but we all know collecting is very specialized.

As you note, there is very little specific literature on these in English, other than cursory remarks in captioned examples in comprehensive works and even the material in other languages is obscure and expensive.

This is why this forum is so essential and has become such a powerful resource for such data, and has become more so since inception over 25 years ago, the collective input of members such as you guys archived into massive resource.

A day without learning , is a day lost!
Thank you all again

and looking forward to more on examples.

All the best
Jim

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2025, 06:19 PM

Pertinax!! THANK YOU! just saw you added this, an absolutely excellent resource and online! My pocket book thanks you

Jim

kahnjar1 · 28th March 2025, 08:11 PM

Jim....I note your comment above about the scabbard being decorated both sides......I can tell you that these knives were often worn by the Berber on a baldrick over the shoulder (see Page 7 of Pertinax book) rather than tucked in a belt or clothing, so both sides of the scabbard would be visible. This is why most have rings both sides of the scabbard neck. It would seem to me that if these were NOT used as a weapon, the Berber would not bother with them. The other thing is that IF they were not used, but rather worn as a status symbol, then the blades would be of low quality as they would not be visible.
Most blades seem to be of quite good, to very good quality, and feature the 1/3 2/3 double edge. Ideal as a stabbing weapon.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2025, 08:56 PM

Understood Stu, and frankly I prefer that perspective

I have seen these with cords I presume woven of wool? and as you note over the shoulder. These really are very attractive daggers! In some of the examples Ive seen in some examples in earlier threads, the inside of the scabbard is 'blank', is there a distinction in those cases or simply a matter of makers preference?

28th March 2025, 02:53 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Re RobT.s comment above......the fact this has no quillons does not preclude it's use as a weapon. I have not seen ANY Koummya that have TRUE quillons. Some have a shaped grip but more often than not, are similar to the example shown by Jim. As far as being used as a weapon goes, I'm sure that they have been in the past (and possibly still are). I should add that there are many examples of tourist items being offered for sale on a well known website and it's just a case of the buyer being aware if a genuine old item is sought. Stu Last edited by kahnjar1; 28th March 2025 at 04:51 AM.

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28th March 2025, 11:47 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks for answering Stu, and well noted on these areas. What I have found interesting on these distinctively made blades is the cutting edge on the inside of curve. This was in my opinion for slashing cut, and in these kinds of uses would not require quillon or hand guard. Most janbiyyas I have seen are without notable guard elements. As with most edged weapons which have become dress or ceremonially worn, just as court swords have become, most evolved in degree from fully combative forms, but have become less pragmatically designed and accordingly more decorated. I think this is what Rob refers to, and as you point out, as I mentioned, it seems there are profound numbers of these which are pretty clearly 'souk' items offered. What attracted me on this one was its solid and hefty character and the well made blade. One thing I was looking at is that the scabbard is decorated fully on both sides, where of course there are examples void of decoration on the inside. Is there any rule of thumb as to either of these instances pointing to souvenir vs. authentic traditionally worn?

28th March 2025, 03:36 PM	#3
Marc M. Member Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Belgium Posts: 276	Hi Jim Congratulations on your first koumiya. I got to know koumiyas in the late 1990s when an exhibition on Morocco was taking place at the Africa Museum. The catalogue of the exhibition did not provide any information about these objects beyond 3 photos. Books about these knives are rare and expensive so knowledge about the koumiya was fairly non-existent. That changed somewhat with joining the forum, lots of info make that I found 3 reasonably good koumiya's, all already posted. What is decisive for me is the blade. With the right dimensions and especially the thickness of the blade, you are already well placed to make the distinction and the general shape and finish of the blade is also important. It is easier to hold it in your hand than to decide from a distance. In the case of a koumiya I try to bend the blade by hand, it stays crookedl, low quality and usually tourist grade, a good steel blade returns to the position before bending. Each of us will have a way of judging a blade. Regards Marc

28th March 2025, 05:59 PM	#4
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 243	An excerpt from the book Armes anciennes du Maroc - Bijoux de parade de Hans F. WAELTY, can be downloaded here: https://www.armes-anciennes-du-maroc..._selection.pdf

28th March 2025, 06:10 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Wonderful input Marc! thank you and for the kind words! After a lifetime of collecting and studying arms and armor, it feels odd to be such a novice in these, but we all know collecting is very specialized. As you note, there is very little specific literature on these in English, other than cursory remarks in captioned examples in comprehensive works and even the material in other languages is obscure and expensive. This is why this forum is so essential and has become such a powerful resource for such data, and has become more so since inception over 25 years ago, the collective input of members such as you guys archived into massive resource. A day without learning , is a day lost! Thank you all again and looking forward to more on examples. All the best Jim

28th March 2025, 06:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Pertinax!! THANK YOU! just saw you added this, an absolutely excellent resource and online! My pocket book thanks you Jim

28th March 2025, 08:11 PM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Jim....I note your comment above about the scabbard being decorated both sides......I can tell you that these knives were often worn by the Berber on a baldrick over the shoulder (see Page 7 of Pertinax book) rather than tucked in a belt or clothing, so both sides of the scabbard would be visible. This is why most have rings both sides of the scabbard neck. It would seem to me that if these were NOT used as a weapon, the Berber would not bother with them. The other thing is that IF they were not used, but rather worn as a status symbol, then the blades would be of low quality as they would not be visible. Most blades seem to be of quite good, to very good quality, and feature the 1/3 2/3 double edge. Ideal as a stabbing weapon. Stu

28th March 2025, 08:56 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Understood Stu, and frankly I prefer that perspective I have seen these with cords I presume woven of wool? and as you note over the shoulder. These really are very attractive daggers! In some of the examples Ive seen in some examples in earlier threads, the inside of the scabbard is 'blank', is there a distinction in those cases or simply a matter of makers preference?