Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

[Jim McDougall]

It seems the questions remainng are, A) was the Adventure Galley ACTUALLY scuttled in the harbor at St.Mary's in Madagascar as Barry Clifford tried to intimate with the huge ingot purported to be silver? and as it seems widely held by many references.
B) Did Kidd actually have treasure to bury? even if not in all the wildly suggested tales which led to the unusual 'industry' of 'money digging'. ?
While the vessels he did actually take were not over laden treasure ships, they did have aboard a certain amount of coin, typically gold it seems, with the bulk of the materials being certain commodities.
It does seem, in his struggles with crew anxious for booty, he did sell these materials and distribute proceeds among the crew.

We know Kidd DID have a certain amount of coin, both silver and gold which he still held in New York and before arrest, buried it on Gardiners Island. This small amount was not the hoards that LORE has buried in the various popularly held areas which have led to the legends and famed literature on pirate treasure.....from Irving, Poe to the quintessential "Treasure Island".

But getting back to his ship....the ADVENTURE GALLEY.....was it really dismantled and burned in St. Marys harbor? We know another of Kidd's ships captured was the Rouparelle (later named November) and that WAS dismantled and BURNED in the harbor in 1698. Perhaps this was what gave the notion the Adventure Galley was burned.

Whatever the case, when Kidd left St. Mary's it was in the Quedah Merchant, the Armenian ship he had captured off India, which had caused Kidds branding as pirate.

I found one theory, of course hypothetical, that Kidd had somehow realigned with former adversary Robert Culliford, who was in St. Marys with his vessel, Mocha. In arrangements with him, Kidd offered him the Adventure Galley, which was careened and repaired over weeks. From there it is thought that Culliford renamed it and sailed back to depredations in the Indian Ocean.
While Culliford was later captured, he was able to arrange clemency for testimony and released.
From there, no further record exists of him.

Clearly one key problem with vessels of these times, is that they often changed hands, whether through being refitted or sold, of course being captured by privateers or pirates ....it becomes hard to follow records to identify a ship with different name obviously.

So while this thread is of course focused on the mystery of this silver ingot found in St. Mary's harbor in Madagascar, and prematurely heralded as silver and EVIDENCE of finding Kidd's Adventure Galley.................the related mysteries of Captain Kidd so prevalent in pirate lore are worthy of inclusion here.

It seems there is strong interest in this subject matter, and I hope others reading might add material, observations and ideas here.
Pirate mysteries never get old!!

[Rick]

Decrepit ships were often burned for their iron in those times, especially if the location was as far flung as Madagascar was back then. This may contribute to the mystery about these vessels.

Now for an illustration of the good captain entertaining visitors aboard in New York before he fell on harder times. How could anyone as genteel as that kill a seaman with a bucket.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much for the input Rick, I always appreciate your insights here in these maritime subjects as I know your hands on awareness on these things and being situated in these New England areas.

Very well noted point on these vessels being burned for iron fittings etc. basically they were being scrapped but with key components being removed for maintenance on other vessels. In some of the reading I have found that often the saving of components went as far as masts etc.

I think these dynamics are an interesting aspect that applies to maritime archaeology as well as our understanding of the history of piracy and privateers. With pirates it seems that as vessels changed hands, they were often (perhaps more often than not) renamed, thus records and accounts of vessels by name might be hard to follow. This seems apparent as historic records of vessels often reflect ships of the same name, so then sometimes period and context come into play.

Thanks as well for this great illustration! As noted it sure gives interesting context. It seems Kidd was one of the most unfortunate individuals in the web of 'piracy' as he was entirely scapegoated to hide high end complicency in privateering scheme gone bad. Kidd was having crew trouble constantly and the 'bucket' incident was purely an accident in a heated moment and not evidence of maltreatment or despotism toward the crews.
They were against Kidd ironically because of his resistance to resort to piracy.

Actually the taking of the Quedah Merchant, the vessel that brought his prosecution for piracy, was done only after Kidd saw that it was under FRENCH passes. This then was in compliance with his letter of marque permitting his taking of French prizes.
Those documents were conveniently 'lost' until discovered in 1911 !

Thank you again Rick, its good having you with me on this thread.

all the best
Jim

[David R]

Seems appropriate for here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJBDjtZ8iQ

[Rick]

I'm with you, Jim.
I'm about 3 miles as the crow flies from the wreck site; it lies offshore about where the Marconi Station was located. During my misspent youth my friends and I most likely unknowingly surfed over the wreck site.
I remember when you could legally drive the beach from Eastham to Provincetown. During one of those rides we came across a large orange fender that had washed off from the wreck site.
Of course, we brought it home with us and it lived the rest of its life out back of my shed. Whydah was painted on the surface of the ball in large letters.
I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the Whydah or the salvage efforts to visit the museum if they're ever on Cape Cod.

A good book about henry Morgan and Port royal.

Empire of Blue Water: Captain Morgan's Great Pirate Army, the Epic Battle for the Americas, and the Catastrophe that Ended the Outlaws' Bloody Reign

You pirate aficionados should enjoy the book listed above.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland!

The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies.
I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association.

I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time who knows?

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library!

David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!

[Jim McDougall]

Just thinking in terms if ballast, in the case of this curiously marked lead ingot, and studying the various forms of lead ingots used as ballast in vessels of these times, there were indeed various heavy materials used as ballast.

In many cases it seems that often the ballast had to of course be dumped or removed in order to load cargo, if that be the case. With pirate or privateer vessels perhaps that would not be considered, as they were not particularly involved in trade, though obviously commodities were typically their prize for sale.

In the case of this ingot, we would consider perhaps a vessel dumping ballast for whatever reason.....but if that be the case....where is the rest?
So in addition to the suspicious markings on this example, even more telling is that it is a single bar.

This was hardly indicative of treasure trove, nor of Captain Kidds, nor his Adventure Galley ....not even a ship wreck period.

Often shipwrecks are located because of the pronounced metal target in sonar with the iron cannon which are typically part of the wreckage. Often vessels long lost are located by the finding of cannon.

However in some cases, location of cannon might suggest a wreck site, but often heavy objects and materials have been used as ballast. Old cannon, armor etc. in many cases have served as such. I wonder if these might have been tossed over to lighten load for any reason.

In the case of five cannon found off the coast of Calif. at Goleta(near Santa Barbara) these were revealed on beach when storms cleared sands. There was not however any sign of a shipwreck. It was later found that a ship had foundered in this location in 1830, but was not wrecked and later it was removed and sold. The bill of sale indicated there were 5 cannon, however obviously these had been thrown off to reduce weight ? in moving the vessel out of its grounded situation.

Meanwhile, during the excited investigation of the guns, all manner of hyperbole evolved, up to claiming these were guns from Sir Francis Drakes ship in the 16th century PROVING he had indeed been there!
Later it was found these were 18th century, but indeed from a vessel of around 1830 by testing of hemp residue on several of them.

Just another example of these premature and fantastic announcements on archaeological finds.