Sudanese shamshir? anomaly

Edster · 28th December 2021, 11:20 PM

Jim,

I looked at the Summary of Historical Notes portion of my Kaskara Crossguards paper and found a couple of saber use notes.
1. 1700-1702 Father Krump observed sabers used by Funj horse & camel cavalry.
2. In a version of the Notes I found El Tounsy's "Voyage to Wadai" (1851) an observation that only the Sultan can use a scimitar and that sabres were imported from Fezzan (now Libya), but soldiers used swords. He also notes the leaf shaped scabbard of the Mandinka were used there. This full text didn't get into the final essay version.

It seems that complete swords and saber were imported in the early 1700s and sabers were only used by the elite. By 1800 sword blades were being imported from Germany and over time replaces the saber even among the elite. Sabers still in use in Wadai area as imports came from Libya rather than Cairo for the Nile Valley.

This may suggest that your saber originated in Wadai/Darfur area.

Best,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2021, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Jim,

I looked at the Summary of Historical Notes portion of my Kaskara Crossguards paper and found a couple of saber use notes.
1. 1700-1702 Father Krump observed sabers used by Funj horse & camel cavalry.
2. In a version of the Notes I found El Tounsy's "Voyage to Wadai" (1851) an observation that only the Sultan can use a scimitar and that sabres were imported from Fezzan (now Libya), but soldiers used swords. He also notes the leaf shaped scabbard of the Mandinka were used there. This full text didn't get into the final essay version.

It seems that complete swords and saber were imported in the early 1700s and sabers were only used by the elite. By 1800 sword blades were being imported from Germany and over time replaces the saber even among the elite. Sabers still in use in Wadai area as imports came from Libya rather than Cairo for the Nile Valley.

This may suggest that your saber originated in Wadai/Darfur area.

Best,
Ed

That is amazing Ed!! thank you so much. I would not have imagined that well heeled status and thought this might be some ceremonial one off. It does make sense coming from Libya with the Ottoman type steel in the blade.

Edster · 28th December 2021, 11:59 PM

El Tounsy's trip was 1803-1810, but wasn't translated into English until 1845 and published in two parts in 1851 & 1854. That could place your sword earlier in the Fezzan trade market.

TVV · 29th December 2021, 07:50 AM

Here is a shamshir from Gavin Nugent's sold items, which based on the python(?) skin cover on the scabbard appears to have been used in an African, most likely Sudanese context at some point. Persian arms were imported and imitated in Sudan, but as discussed German imported blades were preferred, probably because of the ratio of cost to quality.

Richard G · 29th December 2021, 01:47 PM

This is purely speculation, but could it simply be an Ottoman (Egyptian or Hejaz) shamshir that has found its way south and has been 'sudanised' to local taste.
I would really like to know what is under that bulbous brass encased hilt. Is there any way of finding out?
It could be a pleasant surprise.
Regards
Richard

CharlesS · 31st December 2021, 12:35 PM

Great piece Jim!

Here are some curved examples I had posted some time ago, but yours is more along the lines of a much more Ottoman-influenced sword.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...curved+kaskara

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2021, 12:47 PM

Wow Charles!! Forgot those! THAT firmly places this in Sudan along with those great examples, thank you so much,

and its great hearing from you.
Richard, Teodor and Ed, thank you guys.
Great input and great to have all these insights.
It seems the Sudanese had a far greater scope of variations on the kaskara than I had realized.
Richard,
I dont have access to this sword right now, but would hesitate to dismantle the hilt. What would be possibly inside?

29th December 2021, 07:50 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Here is a shamshir from Gavin Nugent's sold items, which based on the python(?) skin cover on the scabbard appears to have been used in an African, most likely Sudanese context at some point. Persian arms were imported and imitated in Sudan, but as discussed German imported blades were preferred, probably because of the ratio of cost to quality. Attached Images

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28th December 2021, 11:20 PM	#1
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Jim, I looked at the Summary of Historical Notes portion of my Kaskara Crossguards paper and found a couple of saber use notes. 1. 1700-1702 Father Krump observed sabers used by Funj horse & camel cavalry. 2. In a version of the Notes I found El Tounsy's "Voyage to Wadai" (1851) an observation that only the Sultan can use a scimitar and that sabres were imported from Fezzan (now Libya), but soldiers used swords. He also notes the leaf shaped scabbard of the Mandinka were used there. This full text didn't get into the final essay version. It seems that complete swords and saber were imported in the early 1700s and sabers were only used by the elite. By 1800 sword blades were being imported from Germany and over time replaces the saber even among the elite. Sabers still in use in Wadai area as imports came from Libya rather than Cairo for the Nile Valley. This may suggest that your saber originated in Wadai/Darfur area. Best, Ed

28th December 2021, 11:59 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	El Tounsy's trip was 1803-1810, but wasn't translated into English until 1845 and published in two parts in 1851 & 1854. That could place your sword earlier in the Fezzan trade market.

29th December 2021, 01:47 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	This is purely speculation, but could it simply be an Ottoman (Egyptian or Hejaz) shamshir that has found its way south and has been 'sudanised' to local taste. I would really like to know what is under that bulbous brass encased hilt. Is there any way of finding out? It could be a pleasant surprise. Regards Richard

31st December 2021, 12:35 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Great piece Jim! Here are some curved examples I had posted some time ago, but yours is more along the lines of a much more Ottoman-influenced sword. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...curved+kaskara

31st December 2021, 12:47 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Wow Charles!! Forgot those! THAT firmly places this in Sudan along with those great examples, thank you so much, and its great hearing from you. Richard, Teodor and Ed, thank you guys. Great input and great to have all these insights. It seems the Sudanese had a far greater scope of variations on the kaskara than I had realized. Richard, I dont have access to this sword right now, but would hesitate to dismantle the hilt. What would be possibly inside?