eBay keris... are these Kraton pieces?

Pangeran Datu · 19th May 2006, 06:06 AM

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

With regard to kerises, it depends on how much of a purist and/or traditionalist you are. Given the history of Solo/Surakarta and Yogayakarta, starting from the 'split', a purist steeped in tradition would never mix the two.

Madura hilts on kerises from other areas may be due to:
- Madurese were often used as soldiers in Java and other areas
- Large Madurese communities settled in areas outside Madura
- A lot of people consider Madurese hilts. like Palembang hilts and Bugis hilts to be the best in the region.

Unless you personally have the wherewithal, it's safer to rely on people you have come to trust or their referrals.

Regards.

Pangeran Datu · 19th May 2006, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

Madura hilts on kerises from other areas may be due to:
- Madurese were often used as soldiers in Java and other areas
- Large Madurese communities settled in areas outside Madura
- A lot of people consider Madurese hilts. like Palembang hilts and Bugis hilts to be the best in the region.

Regards.

Whoops!... My humblest apologies... That's what becomes of trying to multi-task on emails.
The bit on Madura hilts shouldn't have been included

Once again, my apologies.

doecon · 19th May 2006, 06:59 AM

Pangeran, thanks. actually the quote about madura hilts was intresting as well

Alam, Answering the question whether the keris are used in the keraton or not, would probably add another assumption to your list. I think the description itself is pretty clear already.

And of course everthing which is not a known fact is an assumption, some assumptions are however more acurate then others.

Alam Shah · 19th May 2006, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

Alam, Answering the question whether the keris are used in the keraton or not, would probably add another assumption to your list. I think the description itself is pretty clear already.

And of course everthing which is not a known fact is an assumption, some assumptions are however more acurate then others.

Hi doecon,
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Therefore, what you're saying is that, these are Yogyakarta's Keraton and Palace Guard pieces... Hmmm, interesting.

nechesh · 19th May 2006, 02:26 PM

Doecon, when a seller puts a tag line like "Keraton Keris" in the title of their auction they are implying, plain and simple, that the keris in question is a Keraton keris. It is the first thing the potential buyer sees and it sticks in the mind, regardless of all the side-stepping one might do in the description to cover ones rear-end. It is a sales promotion meant to entice and possibly misled, just like another recent auction i saw with the title of" Keris With a Ghost".

Can we please stop the game of semantics here?
Things like age and origin will always be a matter of speculation with keris and barring definite provenence are best left unclaimed. If you state it you are claiming it could be which is something that you can never prove so why say it?
So, if this were a Monty Python comedy sketch your best move would be just to say, "It's a fair cop" and move on.

Satria · 19th May 2006, 02:52 PM

For keris collector, "keraton keris" is perfect keris because of having the history. And keris lover will not sell "keraton keris" will start on a buck.
Keris lover will not get a piece of " keraton keris " with US$1000 ...that is for real.

Fisically.."pamengkang jagad" is "handicaped" keris. Keris maker will sell "pamengkang jagad" pieces with very cheap price because this piece is unsuccess and unperfect keris....but usually the seller make story about this pieces just for rising the value.

So, is it posible that "kraton keris" is unsuccess and unperfect keris ???

doecon · 19th May 2006, 09:53 PM

Mwhahaha

Yep, after the "handicaped" keris remark, I got indeed some inspiration for making new titles, thanks so much.

Satria, I fully understand your concern. But I will continue adding keris for a buck, bidders and buyers dont mind. Its probably the other sellers that are a bit puzzled...Right?

Nechesh, I partly agree. But In my opinion titles are simply titles. They are ment to attract the attention. "Keris with Ghost" obviously did, although the description explains the title. Same counts for Keraton Keris, the description explains what is the point. I think VVV already came to the right conclusion before, you can also sleep in a "presidential suite" without being elected

Alam, ...?

Lets move on again. I'm sure there is enough inspiration for further critizism.

Alam Shah · 19th May 2006, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

With regard to kerises, it depends on how much of a purist and/or traditionalist you are. Given the history of Solo/Surakarta and Yogayakarta, starting from the 'split', a purist steeped in tradition would never mix the two.

Hi Pangeran Datu,
Agreed, afaik. Caveat Emptor is normally the approach. But that still does not answer the question: Are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces?
What is your opinion Pangeran?

Quote:

Unless you personally have the wherewithal, it's safer to rely on people you have come to trust or their referrals.

True, but there are instances where buyers were taken in by their 'so-called' friends (reference to previous threads here). Most of us had come to the consensus that the best way is, to arm yourself adequately with the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision.

Pangeran Datu · 20th May 2006, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Pangeran Datu,
Agreed, afaik. Caveat Emptor is normally the approach. But that still does not answer the question: Are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces?
What is your opinion Pangeran?

Hi Alam Shah.
I picked you for someone with a penchant for Malay/Sumatra/Bugis kerises.

How come so much interest in these pieces? Anyway to answer your question:

- WRT both kerises, I gave them the once-over and dismissed them with a quiet chuckle, thinking, SOMEONE is SURE to buy them.
- WRT 1st piece: I believe that Pamengkang Jagad occurs because at some stage of the manufacturing process, the temperature wasn't high enough, thus not allowing some sections between iron and pamor layers to meld properly. The through crack is because there is no steel core. Connoisseurs as well as the keraton class generally consider this type of keris as being defective. However, it is apparently popular among newcomers and in Malaysia.(See also Satria's comments, above)
- WRT 2nd piece: The only Keraton Yogya kerises I have seen with pendok, have been those made of precious metal and/or inlayed with stones. The pendok is usually not merely used as a sheath protector, but also as a display of wealth/status/power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

True, but there are instances where buyers were taken in by their 'so-called' friends (reference to previous threads here). Most of us had come to the consensus that the best way is, to arm yourself adequately with the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision.

I'm sorry, I didn't elaborate.

It was presumptious of me to assume that all enthusiasts will always research/brush up on something, to the best of their ability, before seeking outside help. But, there is a limit to how much one can absorb and understand ( especially by oneself). Of course, the final decision is yours and it should be the best-informed one you can muster.

Regards.

Alam Shah · 20th May 2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Hi Alam Shah.
I picked you for someone with a penchant for Malay/Sumatra/Bugis kerises.

Hi Pangeran Datu,
If you had seen my tiny collection, what you mentioned above is the bulk of it. Although, I have a few javanese pieces and others as well.

Quote:

How come so much interest in these pieces?

My knowledge in Javanese pieces is limited. The Keraton pieces I've seen are only in books. Furthermore, doecon is a member of this forum, hence the question.

Quote:

- WRT 1st piece: I believe that Pamengkang Jagad occurs because at some stage of the manufacturing process, the temperature wasn't high enough, thus not allowing some sections between iron and pamor layers to meld properly. The through crack is because there is no steel core. Connoisseurs as well as the keraton class generally consider this type of keris as being defective. However, it is apparently popular among newcomers and in Malaysia.(See also Satria's comments, above)

Your answer on Pamengkang Jagad, (a direct translation from Ensiklopedi Keris, pg:332), is appreciated. Afaik, those interested in Malaysia and Singapore are mainly for its esoteric values.

Quote:

- WRT 2nd piece: The only Keraton Yogya kerises I have seen with pendok, have been those made of precious metal and/or inlayed with stones. The pendok is usually not merely used as a sheath protector, but also as a display of wealth/status/power.

Yes, the ones that I've seen are adorned pieces as well.

Quote:

I'm sorry, I didn't elaborate.

It was presumptious of me to assume that all enthusiasts will always research/brush up on something, to the best of their ability, before seeking outside help. But, there is a limit to how much one can absorb and understand ( especially by oneself). Of course, the final decision is yours and it should be the best-informed one you can muster.

Thank you for elaborating.

Pangeran Datu · 20th May 2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Pangeran Datu,
If you had seen my tiny collection, what you mentioned above is the bulk of it. Although, I have a few javanese pieces and others as well.

No, I haven't seen your collection. Is it available for viewing somewhere? Regarding what I said about your penchant, I just drew a long bow, based on your nick, avatar and location

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Thank you for elaborating.

YW

Glad to be of any assistance.
I think the indos refer to it as: Gotong Royong

Alam Shah · 20th May 2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

No, I haven't seen your collection. Is it available for viewing somewhere? Regarding what I said about your penchant, I just drew a long bow, based on your nick, avatar and location

I see.

Quote:

YW

Glad to be of any assistance.
I think the indos refer to it as: Gotong Royong.

Yes it is, "the spirit of sharing". "Gotong Royong" is also a Malay term.

BluErf · 21st May 2006, 05:56 AM

In my opinion, there are indeed many kerises out there (I'm not referring to the kerises in discussion in this thread) that are being offered as kraton pieces. Whether they are real or not needs careful discernment, and sometimes a leap of faith.

I have some questions which I hope can be answered:

1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards?

2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality?

3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu?

4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece?

5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces?

And also, just to share - there is a book published by the Yogya kraton. It has good pictures of the principal keris attributed to the Sultan, the crown prince, the Eldest son and the chief minister. The Sultan's own keris is a rather 'unspectacular' straight keris with a little bit of kinatah work and a combong. And I have seen the keris blade of the super gold Bugis keris on the cover of "Court Arts of Indonesia". That is a "normal-looking" 7-waved Bugis blade. No doubt a good tough blade with good form, but nothing fancy that we would imagine.

So what does it mean to be a kraton piece? And what are the conceptions that we have of the way a kraton piece must look?

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19th May 2006, 06:06 AM	#1
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor With regard to kerises, it depends on how much of a purist and/or traditionalist you are. Given the history of Solo/Surakarta and Yogayakarta, starting from the 'split', a purist steeped in tradition would never mix the two. Madura hilts on kerises from other areas may be due to: - Madurese were often used as soldiers in Java and other areas - Large Madurese communities settled in areas outside Madura - A lot of people consider Madurese hilts. like Palembang hilts and Bugis hilts to be the best in the region. Unless you personally have the wherewithal, it's safer to rely on people you have come to trust or their referrals. Regards.

19th May 2006, 06:59 AM	#3
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Pangeran, thanks. actually the quote about madura hilts was intresting as well Alam, Answering the question whether the keris are used in the keraton or not, would probably add another assumption to your list. I think the description itself is pretty clear already. And of course everthing which is not a known fact is an assumption, some assumptions are however more acurate then others.

19th May 2006, 02:26 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Doecon, when a seller puts a tag line like "Keraton Keris" in the title of their auction they are implying, plain and simple, that the keris in question is a Keraton keris. It is the first thing the potential buyer sees and it sticks in the mind, regardless of all the side-stepping one might do in the description to cover ones rear-end. It is a sales promotion meant to entice and possibly misled, just like another recent auction i saw with the title of" Keris With a Ghost". Can we please stop the game of semantics here? Things like age and origin will always be a matter of speculation with keris and barring definite provenence are best left unclaimed. If you state it you are claiming it could be which is something that you can never prove so why say it? So, if this were a Monty Python comedy sketch your best move would be just to say, "It's a fair cop" and move on.

19th May 2006, 02:52 PM	#6
Satria Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 11	For keris collector, "keraton keris" is perfect keris because of having the history. And keris lover will not sell "keraton keris" will start on a buck. Keris lover will not get a piece of " keraton keris " with US$1000 ...that is for real. Fisically.."pamengkang jagad" is "handicaped" keris. Keris maker will sell "pamengkang jagad" pieces with very cheap price because this piece is unsuccess and unperfect keris....but usually the seller make story about this pieces just for rising the value. So, is it posible that "kraton keris" is unsuccess and unperfect keris ???

19th May 2006, 09:53 PM	#7
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Mwhahaha Yep, after the "handicaped" keris remark, I got indeed some inspiration for making new titles, thanks so much. Satria, I fully understand your concern. But I will continue adding keris for a buck, bidders and buyers dont mind. Its probably the other sellers that are a bit puzzled...Right? Nechesh, I partly agree. But In my opinion titles are simply titles. They are ment to attract the attention. "Keris with Ghost" obviously did, although the description explains the title. Same counts for Keraton Keris, the description explains what is the point. I think VVV already came to the right conclusion before, you can also sleep in a "presidential suite" without being elected Alam, ...? Lets move on again. I'm sure there is enough inspiration for further critizism.

21st May 2006, 05:56 AM	#13
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	In my opinion, there are indeed many kerises out there (I'm not referring to the kerises in discussion in this thread) that are being offered as kraton pieces. Whether they are real or not needs careful discernment, and sometimes a leap of faith. I have some questions which I hope can be answered: 1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards? 2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality? 3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu? 4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece? 5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces? And also, just to share - there is a book published by the Yogya kraton. It has good pictures of the principal keris attributed to the Sultan, the crown prince, the Eldest son and the chief minister. The Sultan's own keris is a rather 'unspectacular' straight keris with a little bit of kinatah work and a combong. And I have seen the keris blade of the super gold Bugis keris on the cover of "Court Arts of Indonesia". That is a "normal-looking" 7-waved Bugis blade. No doubt a good tough blade with good form, but nothing fancy that we would imagine. So what does it mean to be a kraton piece? And what are the conceptions that we have of the way a kraton piece must look?