Tombak Opinions Wanted

doecon · 12th May 2006, 07:13 PM

Sorry for the misunderstanding, the guy next door isn't in the US. I'm located in the one and only country that has fully dressed playmates in their local playboy. Indonesia. (the other half of doecon is in florida

Since I fully symphatize with you lacking a stainingservice, I was trying to opt. some alternatives. Another hint, I did read some time ago about a guy in the US doing this service for others..Unfortunatly I have no record. The only thing I remembered was that he was doing restorations as well. Try google him, who knows.

Another Idea, bit farfechted though, try to organize a little yearly keris-cleaning party. I'm sure there is enough support for that. (If needed I'll put my cleaning guy in a plane

.

Shipping your item here is simply a bit risky and expensive, I would love to help out but you have to pay for your own return postage. (50US for a keris)

Regarding the tombak, IP mentioned that Alan had reason to believe some features might be indicating other origin then Java. Wasn't me, but I would not dare to argue

Alan, come on in ..the floor is yours...

Rick · 12th May 2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

Sorry for the misunderstanding, the guy next door isn't in the US. I'm located in the one and only country that has fully dressed playmates in their local playboy. Indonesia. (the other half of doecon is in florida

Ahh , two branches to the doecon family ; I wondered why the discrepancy .

In the States any one caught using arsenic on any exterior structure would probably be drawn and quartered by either the EPA or OSHA . Even copper sheet for valleys or entire roofs has been reformulated .

nechesh · 12th May 2006, 10:25 PM

Well, that explains alot. I was assuming your location based on your ebay address in Florida.
Believe me, i would gladly trade naked playmates for a corner mranggi any old day.

Yes, as you point out, there are a number of reasons why a U.S. collector might not want to ship a keris overseas for staining. For me the least of it would be the cost, though that is a factor. The staining service itself is cheap, but after tacking on round-trip postages and handling it's a pretty pricey process. But personally i am more concerned about getting my keris back in one piece if at all. There are all kinds of circumstances undr which it could be damaged or lost. Then there is the worry if one has an undiocumented ivory hilt, for instance. It may not make it back through U.S. customs.
The yearly cleaning party idea sounds interesting, but i think it might actually have a greater environmental impact if many keris are being cleaned in one place at the same time. As i said, i personal enjoy staining my own keris. It's not for everyone, i'm sure, but working with keris on this level has only increased my appreciation and knowledge of these blades. For those who are considering it i highly recommend that you start out on some low quality blades that you aren't too worried about. I was fortunate to get my hands on some that i really could only make better, since they were in pretty bad shape. Practice makes perfect..... or at least makes better.

A. G. Maisey · 12th May 2006, 10:42 PM

Thank you Mr. Doecon, for your invitation to participate.

What I actually said was this:-

"---I`m sorry, but I really am not positive at what I am looking at here.

Yes, its a tombak, but it is out of stain, and there are some characteristics that make it difficult for me to identify as a Javanese tombak. It may be Javanese, or it may not be. It appears to be in overall good condition, ----
There`s just not a lot I can tell you about this *****. Commentary on Javanese wesi aji starts with an attempt at classification, and because this is out of stain and has some non-typical ( for Javanese) characteristics, there is no way I could make a sensible classification. Sorry.---"

I do not know what is , and if I do not know, I`m not prepared to guess.

If I had it in my hand the story could be different, but giving positive ID`s on the basis of a photo is something that I am often just not good enough to do.

nechesh · 12th May 2006, 11:48 PM

Well Alan, as you know, i am merely a student of the keris, but i know even less about tombak. Could you tell us what characteristics about this tombak are non-typical to Javanese origin. It might help Doecon's understanding of why you hesitate to classify this one and it would probably help my understanding of tombaks as well.

Personally i think anyone would be somewhat foolish to claim they can make a positive ID of keris and tombaks based on a few photos viewed on the internet. Photos, even apparently good ones, can easily mislead as to tone, hue and color and give no indication of weight or feel.

Nagawarrior · 13th May 2006, 01:08 AM

Thank you for your input here Alan. I didn't want to print your full reply to me without your permission so I just thanked you when I started this thread. I hope I haven't committed a faux pas.
I still would like to know where I can obtain some of the arsenic trioxide for staining here in California. Can any one help with that? I find great pleasure in hands on care of items in my collection and really want to try to stain myself. I probably wouldn't start with this Tombak. Rather as suggested, start with a low grade Keris I have so I may learn. I have used the method suggested by Alan in the past, but had to resort to Radio Shack etchant for the acid. This does not produce the pleasing look I want. It works well on other swords I might say.
Thanks to all here for your replies. They are much appreciated

doecon · 13th May 2006, 03:32 AM

Just a few notes regarding some above;

No positive ID given, just guesswork here from my site. Its obvious that an ID would require more info/better pics. As mentioned I have no idea how the ferule is forged, no pics no info.

Neshech;
I noticed you mentioned that "warangan" isn't for protection; actually both the "acid" bath and the final oil ritual are in some way. Acid bathing stops or limits the oxidation. just for the record

Naga;
I was under the impression that your Radio Shack was used to replace the arsenic substance (I had no idea you ment the acid). For the acid itself you can use lime. (locally they use the small green ones). This acid is used in the first step, as in cleaning your tombak. Once fully done (might take days) you will have a nice "white" tombak..then you start "staining" . Just google "warangan", you find some pretty good descriptions of the process in the first hits.

I'll try to dig up some uncleaned (old) blades as "practising material" and will post them for you in the swap forum if needed. But please keep in mind that some of us (including myself) have some kind of respect for these sharp old things, so please do handle your blades likewise.

12th May 2006, 07:13 PM	#1
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Sorry for the misunderstanding, the guy next door isn't in the US. I'm located in the one and only country that has fully dressed playmates in their local playboy. Indonesia. (the other half of doecon is in florida Since I fully symphatize with you lacking a stainingservice, I was trying to opt. some alternatives. Another hint, I did read some time ago about a guy in the US doing this service for others..Unfortunatly I have no record. The only thing I remembered was that he was doing restorations as well. Try google him, who knows. Another Idea, bit farfechted though, try to organize a little yearly keris-cleaning party. I'm sure there is enough support for that. (If needed I'll put my cleaning guy in a plane. Shipping your item here is simply a bit risky and expensive, I would love to help out but you have to pay for your own return postage. (50US for a keris) Regarding the tombak, IP mentioned that Alan had reason to believe some features might be indicating other origin then Java. Wasn't me, but I would not dare to argue Alan, come on in ..the floor is yours...

13th May 2006, 01:08 AM	#6
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Thank you for your input here Alan. I didn't want to print your full reply to me without your permission so I just thanked you when I started this thread. I hope I haven't committed a faux pas. I still would like to know where I can obtain some of the arsenic trioxide for staining here in California. Can any one help with that? I find great pleasure in hands on care of items in my collection and really want to try to stain myself. I probably wouldn't start with this Tombak. Rather as suggested, start with a low grade Keris I have so I may learn. I have used the method suggested by Alan in the past, but had to resort to Radio Shack etchant for the acid. This does not produce the pleasing look I want. It works well on other swords I might say. Thanks to all here for your replies. They are much appreciated Last edited by Nagawarrior; 13th May 2006 at 01:52 AM.

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12th May 2006, 10:25 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, that explains alot. I was assuming your location based on your ebay address in Florida. Believe me, i would gladly trade naked playmates for a corner mranggi any old day. Yes, as you point out, there are a number of reasons why a U.S. collector might not want to ship a keris overseas for staining. For me the least of it would be the cost, though that is a factor. The staining service itself is cheap, but after tacking on round-trip postages and handling it's a pretty pricey process. But personally i am more concerned about getting my keris back in one piece if at all. There are all kinds of circumstances undr which it could be damaged or lost. Then there is the worry if one has an undiocumented ivory hilt, for instance. It may not make it back through U.S. customs. The yearly cleaning party idea sounds interesting, but i think it might actually have a greater environmental impact if many keris are being cleaned in one place at the same time. As i said, i personal enjoy staining my own keris. It's not for everyone, i'm sure, but working with keris on this level has only increased my appreciation and knowledge of these blades. For those who are considering it i highly recommend that you start out on some low quality blades that you aren't too worried about. I was fortunate to get my hands on some that i really could only make better, since they were in pretty bad shape. Practice makes perfect..... or at least makes better.

12th May 2006, 10:42 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,228	Thank you Mr. Doecon, for your invitation to participate. What I actually said was this:- "---I`m sorry, but I really am not positive at what I am looking at here. Yes, its a tombak, but it is out of stain, and there are some characteristics that make it difficult for me to identify as a Javanese tombak. It may be Javanese, or it may not be. It appears to be in overall good condition, ---- There`s just not a lot I can tell you about this *****. Commentary on Javanese wesi aji starts with an attempt at classification, and because this is out of stain and has some non-typical ( for Javanese) characteristics, there is no way I could make a sensible classification. Sorry.---" I do not know what is , and if I do not know, I`m not prepared to guess. If I had it in my hand the story could be different, but giving positive ID`s on the basis of a photo is something that I am often just not good enough to do.

12th May 2006, 11:48 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Alan, as you know, i am merely a student of the keris, but i know even less about tombak. Could you tell us what characteristics about this tombak are non-typical to Javanese origin. It might help Doecon's understanding of why you hesitate to classify this one and it would probably help my understanding of tombaks as well. Personally i think anyone would be somewhat foolish to claim they can make a positive ID of keris and tombaks based on a few photos viewed on the internet. Photos, even apparently good ones, can easily mislead as to tone, hue and color and give no indication of weight or feel.

13th May 2006, 03:32 AM	#7
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Just a few notes regarding some above; No positive ID given, just guesswork here from my site. Its obvious that an ID would require more info/better pics. As mentioned I have no idea how the ferule is forged, no pics no info. Neshech; I noticed you mentioned that "warangan" isn't for protection; actually both the "acid" bath and the final oil ritual are in some way. Acid bathing stops or limits the oxidation. just for the record Naga; I was under the impression that your Radio Shack was used to replace the arsenic substance (I had no idea you ment the acid). For the acid itself you can use lime. (locally they use the small green ones). This acid is used in the first step, as in cleaning your tombak. Once fully done (might take days) you will have a nice "white" tombak..then you start "staining" . Just google "warangan", you find some pretty good descriptions of the process in the first hits. I'll try to dig up some uncleaned (old) blades as "practising material" and will post them for you in the swap forum if needed. But please keep in mind that some of us (including myself) have some kind of respect for these sharp old things, so please do handle your blades likewise.