Tulwar for comment

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2019, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Oh yes, there are traces of inlay.
In the stars as well as in the round stamp.

Well there you have it!!! Thank you Jens, could not see that in original images.
This IS a European blade, not only were these type markings not copied (as far as I recall) by Indian armourers, I do not recall ever seeing latten (gold metal inlay) in such markings.
Obviously Mughal blades had such inlay in cartouches and inscriptions etc. but never used on these rather pedestrian markings.

That central circle has the dentations in surround much like the ones on the sickle marks, and the cogwheels are known in combination as bracketing the dentated arcs. This may be a variation of markings as so commonly seen on Italian blades .

kahnjar1 · 10th October 2019, 08:02 PM

Thank you Jens for enhancing my original pic. It now shows the inlay quite clearly......and thank you Jim for identifying the marks as European. Now all we need is someone to identify who the marks belong to!
Stu

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2019, 09:49 PM

Stu, there's the rub!
Markings are a pretty sticky wicket most of the time, especially these kinds of variant groupings which seem to have been used collectively on blades in certain sectors of production and in various times.

While there were certain cases of certain devices and symbolic images which can be attributed to certain makers, the spurious cross use of these and others which may have had other meanings have been used in a quality imbuement sense.

Personally I am inclined to place the markings on your blade in a German context, as the use of gold metal inlay was a very much German proclivity.
Naturally as with anything, there are no hard and fast rules, but it is just my own sense of the case of such use.

The gold metal fill in the marks were probably spuriously applied as interpretations of Italian markings seen and in the kind of astral grouping used often on European blades.

I wish there was a way to align particular blades to certain makers with European instances, but aside from the registered or documented ones, these kinds of generalized devices were usually used broadly by many providers.

Kubur · 10th October 2019, 10:48 PM

No one is seeing an half moon like me??
European half moon faces filled with cooper or brass?
Absolutely not convinced that it is European...
Please show me some similar blades from Europe...
Nice sword by the way

Kubur · 10th October 2019, 11:19 PM

ohhh what a surprise an Indian sword
with an Indian blade
with the same little stars...

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 12:34 AM

Kubur! You ARE good!!!!
Well done on showing this blade with 'Indian stars' (aka European cogwheels).

This blade has the distinct 'Indian ricasso', and as you point out these cogwheel marks configured in well known Italian arrangement.

Here is the deal. These 'cogwheels' are well known in Italian markings and often placed with other devices in motif on European blades. I am attaching (from Boccia & Coelho, 1975) some images of the typical conventions used in Italian markings end of 16th into early 17th c. They are North Italy of course.

Note the 'vesical piscus' ellipse in one grouping along with the cogwheels and the dentation on the ellipse. There is also an apparent affinity for images in roundels, such as the winged griffin as well as the winged lion of St. Marks.
While these images in roundel surround are shown, the cogwheels seem to be placed around or bracketing them.

The image of the man in the moon, which you have aptly emphasized, is seen in roundel (after the Italian fashion?) but on a German blade of c. 1630. This image is from the Wallace collection (Mann 1962).
Again, the inlay of gold metal in markings was a German favored affectation, but not saying not used in other exceptions, just in my opinion, not India.

In the case of this tulwar, could the marking arrangement have been copied in India....of course. But would the armorers gone to the added detail of 'latten' filled markings? It would be remarkably unusual.

In the case of the linear cogwheel marks shown in the tulwar, indeed I have seen these, but usually on khanda blades typically shown as 'firangi', that is with Italian (or other European) blade.

kahnjar1 · 11th October 2019, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

ohhh what a surprise an Indian sword
with an Indian blade
with the same little stars...

Hi Kubur,
No, the stars are different. Yours have 8 points and those on mine only 6. Not to say though that those on your sword are Indian copies.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 02:23 AM

Ok, looked into Boccia & Coelho again ("Armi Bianchi Italiene"", 1975) which is of course on Italian edged weapons. These images are of short sabres known as storta, which are from early 17th c.
Please note the variant blade features, which include ricasso and choil at the blade forte.
Also in the one image, look at the plethora of 'Indian stars'!!!!

(#6)

The use of forefinger over the forward quillon has been described in numbers of sources, often using the term 'Italian grip' if I recall correctly. There has been considerable debate over the suggestions that Indian swordsmen used this grip with extended forefinger over the quillon, but perhaps this may be the source for the feature which Indians added to their blades termed the 'Indian ricasso'.

Here we see, 'Italian' swords with these blade features, and of course the markings being discussed, known in Italy as 'cogwheels'. In European heraldry I believe they are called mullets. The number of radiating spikes do not seem significant.

In my view though, the blade posted by Kubur with these linear cogwheels is Italian, thus the sword is 'firangi'. Again, I have not seen these type marks duplicated by Indian blade makers, but the use of Italian blades appears to have a long tradition in India. These brought in by Portuguese certainly remained in circulation for some time, added to by the German blades so well favored and known, termed 'Alemani'.

Kubur, what in particular makes this blade (post 26) in this tulwar, 'Indian' in your view? As I mentioned, these type arrangements on straight SE blades in khanda seem invariably to be Italian, and seem to be from from perhaps schiavona of 18th c.

On the use of copper/brass filled markings, the running wolf and cross and orb are the most commonly seen examples and invariably on German blades it seems.

10th October 2019, 11:19 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	ohhh what a surprise an Indian sword with an Indian blade with the same little stars... Attached Images

11th October 2019, 02:23 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Ok, looked into Boccia & Coelho again ("Armi Bianchi Italiene"", 1975) which is of course on Italian edged weapons. These images are of short sabres known as storta, which are from early 17th c. Please note the variant blade features, which include ricasso and choil at the blade forte. Also in the one image, look at the plethora of 'Indian stars'!!!! (#6) The use of forefinger over the forward quillon has been described in numbers of sources, often using the term 'Italian grip' if I recall correctly. There has been considerable debate over the suggestions that Indian swordsmen used this grip with extended forefinger over the quillon, but perhaps this may be the source for the feature which Indians added to their blades termed the 'Indian ricasso'. Here we see, 'Italian' swords with these blade features, and of course the markings being discussed, known in Italy as 'cogwheels'. In European heraldry I believe they are called mullets. The number of radiating spikes do not seem significant. In my view though, the blade posted by Kubur with these linear cogwheels is Italian, thus the sword is 'firangi'. Again, I have not seen these type marks duplicated by Indian blade makers, but the use of Italian blades appears to have a long tradition in India. These brought in by Portuguese certainly remained in circulation for some time, added to by the German blades so well favored and known, termed 'Alemani'. Kubur, what in particular makes this blade (post 26) in this tulwar, 'Indian' in your view? As I mentioned, these type arrangements on straight SE blades in khanda seem invariably to be Italian, and seem to be from from perhaps schiavona of 18th c. On the use of copper/brass filled markings, the running wolf and cross and orb are the most commonly seen examples and invariably on German blades it seems. Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

10th October 2019, 08:02 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Thank you Jens for enhancing my original pic. It now shows the inlay quite clearly......and thank you Jim for identifying the marks as European. Now all we need is someone to identify who the marks belong to! Stu

10th October 2019, 09:49 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Stu, there's the rub! Markings are a pretty sticky wicket most of the time, especially these kinds of variant groupings which seem to have been used collectively on blades in certain sectors of production and in various times. While there were certain cases of certain devices and symbolic images which can be attributed to certain makers, the spurious cross use of these and others which may have had other meanings have been used in a quality imbuement sense. Personally I am inclined to place the markings on your blade in a German context, as the use of gold metal inlay was a very much German proclivity. Naturally as with anything, there are no hard and fast rules, but it is just my own sense of the case of such use. The gold metal fill in the marks were probably spuriously applied as interpretations of Italian markings seen and in the kind of astral grouping used often on European blades. I wish there was a way to align particular blades to certain makers with European instances, but aside from the registered or documented ones, these kinds of generalized devices were usually used broadly by many providers.

10th October 2019, 10:48 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	No one is seeing an half moon like me?? European half moon faces filled with cooper or brass? Absolutely not convinced that it is European... Please show me some similar blades from Europe... Nice sword by the way

11th October 2019, 12:34 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Kubur! You ARE good!!!! Well done on showing this blade with 'Indian stars' (aka European cogwheels). This blade has the distinct 'Indian ricasso', and as you point out these cogwheel marks configured in well known Italian arrangement. Here is the deal. These 'cogwheels' are well known in Italian markings and often placed with other devices in motif on European blades. I am attaching (from Boccia & Coelho, 1975) some images of the typical conventions used in Italian markings end of 16th into early 17th c. They are North Italy of course. Note the 'vesical piscus' ellipse in one grouping along with the cogwheels and the dentation on the ellipse. There is also an apparent affinity for images in roundels, such as the winged griffin as well as the winged lion of St. Marks. While these images in roundel surround are shown, the cogwheels seem to be placed around or bracketing them. The image of the man in the moon, which you have aptly emphasized, is seen in roundel (after the Italian fashion?) but on a German blade of c. 1630. This image is from the Wallace collection (Mann 1962). Again, the inlay of gold metal in markings was a German favored affectation, but not saying not used in other exceptions, just in my opinion, not India. In the case of this tulwar, could the marking arrangement have been copied in India....of course. But would the armorers gone to the added detail of 'latten' filled markings? It would be remarkably unusual. In the case of the linear cogwheel marks shown in the tulwar, indeed I have seen these, but usually on khanda blades typically shown as 'firangi', that is with Italian (or other European) blade. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th October 2019 at 12:45 AM.