The Mexican gunpowder dilemma

[Jim McDougall]

Philip, thank you so much!
In recent study of firearms powder, I was curious on the 'old'method of measuring the charge in the ammunition in the Winchester rifles and carbines of 1870s+.
It notes that the .44-.40 cartridge was .44 cal. but the .40 indicated forty grains of black powder.

In the same 'type' lever action Winchester in more recent times, those for hunting apparently are of as much as 150 to 170 grain with varied bullet heads, but the .30-.30 is called that in accord with the old method of noting the grain weight. Very curious.

[yulzari]

Coming late to the party I apologise if I repeat anything already said that I missed on reading my way through the thread.

There does seem to be a misconception that Britain was arming the Mexican government. Britain was simply selling off surplus arms from it's stock that were no longer needed. Mexico got what it ordered and paid for. Probably (as was normally the case) through a British company buying them at auction for the Mexicans. The weapons were well made and possibly worn but in serviceable condition. The quoted back to back 'V's do not note the gun as unserviceable but simply that they were sold out of British government service. No poor quality is implied. The Mexicans bought cheap and got cheap.

As far as powder was concerned the guns were not noticeably supported by powder sales. British manufacturers would have been only too happy to have sold good powder were the Mexicans to offer to buy it at a profitable price. Again I am not aware of any such approach nor sales. Essentially the Mexicans made their own and it was awful They had the ingredients but poorly refined, charred and worse processed.

IIRC the Mexicans did have trouble finding domestic flint and knapping the same which would raise the proportion of misfires.

FWIW it seems that the Mexican powder of the day was like a poor British ACW powder and was used in equivalent arms. Were the troops trained and supported like the British army in the ACW they could have overcome their material issues but the Mexican army was not so organised despite the doubtless bravery of the troops on the ground. The British powder of the time of the Alamo was an order of magnitude better than in the ACW when it was one of the poorest in Europe. Hence the government going into the business of powder making itself to get the necessary quality.

Again, pursuing a comparison to the ACW British army, an equivalent Mexican army would have had the troops well supplied with powder, well fed and clothed with several months of relevant training and practice before they came under fire confident in their arms and well directed.

In short. Yes they had *** powder but that was a hinderance to their performance, not a bar. The underlying issue was the way the Mexican army was run. The common soldiers, as ever, paid the price.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by yulzari

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IIRC the Mexicans did have trouble finding domestic flint and knapping the same which would raise the proportion of misfires.

The subject of the flint-knapping industry worldwide is an under-researched field other than that dealing with England and France, which led the world in volume and the longevity of production of a very high-quality product. Undoubtedly you know of the article "The Manufacture of Gunflints" by Stephen White and Mario Scalini, in Art, Arms , and Armour ( Robert Held, ed., 1979). It has an extensive bibliography and detailed coverage of the technical aspects of the craft (with excellent illustrations). However Mr White did admit that documentary information on the industry itself in many countries was rather scanty, and that coverage of North America is unfortunately limited to perfunctory data on the US, with no mention of either Canada or Mexico.

If any forum members has access to more recent published info, expecially dealing with North America, please share with us.

[Jim McDougall]

Yulzari, welcome!! and thank you for the very much spot on summary of the situation with the Mexican army at the Alamo (and for that matter afterwards as well) with arms and powder. as you have well noted, there was nothing wrong with the India pattern Brown Bess muskets, nor the Baker rifles.
From one source I read after the end of the Napoleonic campaigns, in what was noted as pretty much standard British fashion, the 'war is over' so time to unload the surplus.
These arms were simply in excess for the now peaceful status, so perfectly functional.
As noted, the 'training' of the Mexican army ranks was inadequate and deplorable, just as the supply of required materials such as powder. The corruption notoriously known in the Mexican government especially under Santa Anna certainly led to the poor production leading to miserable powder.

One thing I was trying to discover here was where in the world did Mexico in these years get the powder they were using? As noted, the British had very good quality powder with their considerable sources for saltpeter, however I feel sure the Mexicans thought they did not need that expense and could make their own. In all the resources I have checked there were mentions of certain arms works, but no mention at all of powder production.

With the Texians, although in limited supply, the powder they had was apparently Dupont, which was excellent powder, but diminished in quantity.
With all the powder however, the elements of weather and dampness rendering it relatively inert came very much in play.

Thank you again for joining us here! and never worry about reiterating something already said These threads can get pretty long and intense and often its good to bring up certain aspects that are key in the discussion from time to time.

[Jim McDougall]

Philip, just crossed posts. Thank you so much for bringing up the flints, which is a most salient factor as well in the operation of these guns, and honestly I had forgotten about. I know that one of the reasons that the flintlock remained in use for so long in remote regions was that it was often so difficult to get the percussion caps for guns with that 'modernized' feature.
With that, I had the impression that powder and commensurately the flints were far easier to come by. Clearly that notion was not entirely well founded, and getting these important components would often present issues....and edged weapons, bayonets etc. would prevail.

I do recall reading that in Spanish colonial America the use of the lance prevailed as a more durable and ready weapon as firearms were not as available due to serviceability and it would appear, lack of powder. Perhaps the lack of flint may have equally come into play.

[yulzari]

Mexico has traditionally been fond of fireworks and this was probably the major production purpose. Equally, whilst Mexico did make gun powder and the Confederate States in the ACW were woefully short of powder, I can find no suggestion that they attempted to import Mexican powder.

Both of these suggest to me that Mexico only made firework powder which would explain the poor shooting qualities when employed as a firearm powder.

Firearm gun powder is different in the quality of materials and it's processing to firework powder. It is both less powerful for the same weight or volume but also fouls the bore greatly.

[yulzari]

I wrote a post on the subject and it has disappeared into the ether so i will summarise.

The gun powder made in Mexico was probably firework powder which would match the described qualities of Mexican arms in the period and be fit for the major market for gun powder domestically.

[fernando]

If in one hand is plausible that Mexicans assumed the weakness of their explosives, it is rather amazing that their forces went to war knowing that their (no gun) powder was for pyrotechnic use.
For this or that reason, Santa Ana (in 1850's) "has acquired new machinery for the gunpowder factories" (Martha Eugenia Gillaumin).
As already approached, the use of a smaller projectile obviated for residual accumulation in the barrels. It looks as the trick to compensate for consequent (short) range limitations was the dispersion provided by the buck & ball load. This ammo system, first thought to be a 'possible' resource, was later confirmed by archaeologists (Doctor Greg Dimmick) who have found numerous Brown Bess cartridges loaded with a single basic ball added by a few buckshot pellets. Some story goes in that Joe, Travis slave, describes the type of projectile that hit his head as a compound looking like more than one shot.
On another note, we can read in an article by the Naval History Division that, on the 3th. March 1836 (3 days before the Alamo fall) " Texas schooner Liberty captures Mexican schooner Pelican off Sisal, Yucatan, with contraband gunpowder " ... for whatever this suggests.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much guys!
Interesting notes Yulzari, . As you note, it is presumed that Mexico made powder (somewhere) in the 1830s period we are discussing, but where that might have been is what I cannot determine.
True, the fireworks industry is big in Mexico, having grown up in Southern California the endless supply of fireworks (not necessarily legal) from across the border was profoundly known.

It had seemed to me that although obviously the powder mixtures for fireworks were quite different than that used in gun powder, that the basic components would also have what was necessary for producing it.

The note on the Confederacy being short of powder is curious as I had always heard that these forces never experienced shortages of effective powder as they ran one of the biggest centers for production in North America.
Naturally this was during the Civil War which was years later than the Texian revolution and the Mexican America war.

Well noted on the buck and Ball Fernando, and thank you for the info on Santa Anna getting new machinery for gunpowder in the 1850s. By this time he had used up most of his many attempts at securing power in Mexico.
As you have pointed out, the terrible powder used would quickly foul the barrels of the guns, so smaller caliber ball was used, and the buckshot would add to the short range wounding potential of the underpowered shot.
The fact that Joe was hit in the head and survived is telling. There are numbers of accounts of men in these campaigns hit by Mexican ball and not notably wounded.

The terrible attitude toward the forces of the Mexican army seems to say that they were poorly trained and poorly supplied, basically cannon fodder. However elite forces such as the cazadores were much better armed and supplied.

Fernando, truly interesting note on that Mexican vessel captured off Yucatan with contraband powder! So where was this powder from?