New Keris for info

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2019, 10:29 PM

Perceptive Detlef, but it is wise not to forget that Madura is a part of East Jawa, and these days, connected by a bridge. Things that at one time might have been thought of in exclusively Madura terms, have, for as long as I have been going to Jawa, and for a considerable period prior to that, perhaps have been better thought of as 'Jawa Timur'.

David, I am not suggesting that this keris under discussion is not just as you comment. However, in respect of these kingfisher hilts appearing on blades other than one specific form, and with scabbards other than one specific form, I have had, and I think I still do have, examples of complete keris that have been together for lengthy periods of time and that do have this hilt form coupled with other than the correct component parts. The combination in mine, and in others I have seen, is usually with a Bugis style wrongko, and at least in mine, with the hilt firmly in place but back to front.

David · 29th May 2019, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I am not suggesting that this keris under discussion is not just as you comment. However, in respect of these kingfisher hilts appearing on blades other than one specific form, and with scabbards other than one specific form, I have had, and I think I still do have, examples of complete keris that have been together for lengthy periods of time and that do have this hilt form coupled with other than the correct component parts. The combination in mine, and in others I have seen, is usually with a Bugis style wrongko, and at least in mine, with the hilt firmly in place but back to front.

Alan, i have no doubt that you have keris with a Bugis style wrongko and a tajong hilt. I have also occasionally seen such a combination, though the vast majority of tajong keris i have seen use the more traditional sheath form. And you must admit that just because such a combo may have been married for some time there is no telling exactly how and why this came to be or if such a keris was ever worn in a cultural way or if it simple came together this way in a dealer's back room. I realize that for both you and myself, Keris of the Malaysian Peninsula and Southern Thailand are not our focus of attention, but if you have paid any attention at all to our Malaysian membership on the topic, Tajong is a bit of a serious business and Malaysians tend to be rather critical of such "misinformed" combinations as well as tajong hilts that are made outside if the Peninsula. In fact some seem to view these Jawa and Madura carved tajong as a bit of cultural appropriation. Most tajong keris i have seen that are considered by Malaysian collectors as "real" are indeed dressed with the more traditional sheath and the majority tend to have pandai saras blades, though sometimes some other form of Malay blades do often appear. Though never have i seen such a combo with a panjang. Yes, we all know that strange things do indeed happen across the archipelago, but i don't see how informing Marius of the oddness of such a combination is incorrect simply because sometimes odd combination happen, especially since everything seems to point to the unlikelihood that his combination was ever one that would have been serviceable in a societal context.
I know you are aware of what the proper tajong dress looks like, but here is a link for those who may be wondering.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tajong

A. G. Maisey · 29th May 2019, 02:05 AM

Agreed.

mariusgmioc · 29th May 2019, 05:59 AM

Very, very interesting!
Thank you again for this very educative discussion!

kai · 29th May 2019, 06:40 AM

Yes, David, tajong are nobility hilts and expected to come with suitable attire. Granted, also nobility can fall on hard times and tajong scabbards are pretty fragile.

Marius‘ hilt is not a proper tajong hilt though and the whole ensemble may be regarded as modern art. However, the quality of this hilt is quite poor IMHO and a tapa kuda hilt would look much nicer. Considering the blade, a large Sumatran-style planar hilt might be an even better fit - very difficult to obtain though!

Marius, I’m also wondering about the 40+ assertion. Any good evidence?

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 29th May 2019, 10:21 AM

It is interesting to notice how we have become more tolerant or even appreciative with this type of modern & mixed kris over the years. I think that 10 years ago most of us would have designated this piece as a KLO (kris-like object) in spite of the impressive blade.
Regards

David · 29th May 2019, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

It is interesting to notice how we have become more tolerant or even appreciative with this type of modern & mixed kris over the years. I think that 10 years ago most of us would have designated this piece as a KLO (kris-like object) in spite of the impressive blade.
Regards

I guess i must be an old guard traditionalist Jean because i am not being particularly tolerant of this ensemble myself, as you have probably noticed. I actually find this homogenizing trend i believe i am seeing across Indonesian cultures a bit disturbing in fact. This aside from the odd mixes that have always taken place from time to time as Alan has described that actually were actively present on a societal context. This particular mix, however, is one i have a hard time seeing as something that would have found acceptance within any cultural structure.

mariusgmioc · 29th May 2019, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Marius, I’m also wondering about the 40+ assertion. Any good evidence?

Regards,
Kai

No hard evidence.

PS: I haven't seen any other Tajong hilts, but mine is very finely carved, with high detail. I honestly don't think it can go much better than this. Maybe the photos are not good enough but the carving quality of the hilt is top... in my opinion.

David · 29th May 2019, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I haven't seen any other Tajong hilts, but mine is very finely carved, with high detail. I honestly don't think it can go much better than this. Maybe the photos are not good enough but the carving quality of the hilt is top... in my opinion.

Marius, i don't feel that i can make any comments on the quality of you tajong hilt or even say for sure that it is a Javanese copy based solely upon the photos that you have presented. Other here more familiar with the form do seem to have been able to say more. That said however, i will say that the tajong form at the peak of its craft can be extremely high end in its carving and detail. I would recommend the you get a hold of the book Spirit of Wood if you are interested in seeing what i mean. While the carving on you hilt probably is very nice i would suspect that it probably is possible that there are indeed tajong hilts that are at a much higher quality level than the one you have on this ensemble.
But it would be nice to see some better, more detailed photos of it if you feel you would like to post some. They might help determine the actual origin of the hilt better than what you have already provided.

A. G. Maisey · 29th May 2019, 11:42 PM

David, I do not regard the mix & match thing with keris as a "homogenising" trend, this is not recent, it has been like this for a very long time, probably hundreds of years.

Where we get the influence of a kraton, or perhaps even of a large group of people, we find a certain standardisation of dress, but even when dress becomes standardised, blades can come from anywhere.

I'm not talking about Marius' keris here, my remarks are directed at keris in general.

From at least Majapahit times, keris and other weapons were exported all over SE Asia as items of trade. For 2000 years or more people have moved from one place to another all over SE Asia.

I have had a keris interest for around 65 years, and I started my interest with a small collection that had been put together beginning in about 1919. At age 30 I had put together around 3000 keris. Over all the time I have been interested in keris and have collected them I have regularly found blades that are identifiable with one area, in dress that is identifiable with a different area.

It is of course true that we can only see the result of component parts of a keris being mixed, we do not know who actually did the mixing. Frankly, this does not trouble me in the slightest, the heart of a complete keris is the keris itself, the wilah, the blade, the dress is only that which covers it, exactly the same as clothes cover a man. The scabbard is female in nature, the hilt is protective in nature.

In my thinking, if a man is free from societal restriction, how he dresses his keris is totally up to him. But the question remains:- who did the mix? This of course generates another question:- why should it be important if the mix was done in one place or another, or by one person or another?

For a student of the keris the only really important thing is the keris itself, not what covers it.

Because of its protective nature the hilt can also be important.

But the scabbard, or wrongko, or warangka, or sarung is a female element, it means no more than a wife does to a man. A man might have a number of wives, either all at the one time or serially. If a man has, say, 4 wives at the same time, he will normally select the most suitable wife as his companion depending upon the need. If he has married serially and has had, say, a Swedish wife, then an Irish wife, then a Javanese wife, and then a Chinese wife, he has simply changed his wife in accordance with his changing needs in life.

It is the same with a keris:- the dress we find a keris in has been given to it to suit its needs, and since that keris is virtually certain to have a much longer life than its scabbard, when eventually the present scabbard is changed for a new one, the new scabbard will fit the need at that time.

It may seem strange to draw a parallel between a man and keris, but it is not.

The keris represents the male element, just as the scabbard represents the female element. Do we value a man less because he has an Italian wife rather than a Japanese wife? I would hope not. Do we value a keris less because it has a Balinese scabbard rather than a Javanese scabbard? Again, I would hope not. As with people, the things that really count are quality and fitness for purpose. In both cases.

29th May 2019, 10:21 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	It is interesting to notice how we have become more tolerant or even appreciative with this type of modern & mixed kris over the years. I think that 10 years ago most of us would have designated this piece as a KLO (kris-like object) in spite of the impressive blade. Regards Last edited by Jean; 29th May 2019 at 12:31 PM.

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28th May 2019, 10:29 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Perceptive Detlef, but it is wise not to forget that Madura is a part of East Jawa, and these days, connected by a bridge. Things that at one time might have been thought of in exclusively Madura terms, have, for as long as I have been going to Jawa, and for a considerable period prior to that, perhaps have been better thought of as 'Jawa Timur'. David, I am not suggesting that this keris under discussion is not just as you comment. However, in respect of these kingfisher hilts appearing on blades other than one specific form, and with scabbards other than one specific form, I have had, and I think I still do have, examples of complete keris that have been together for lengthy periods of time and that do have this hilt form coupled with other than the correct component parts. The combination in mine, and in others I have seen, is usually with a Bugis style wrongko, and at least in mine, with the hilt firmly in place but back to front.

29th May 2019, 02:05 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Agreed.

29th May 2019, 05:59 AM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Very, very interesting! Thank you again for this very educative discussion!

29th May 2019, 06:40 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Yes, David, tajong are nobility hilts and expected to come with suitable attire. Granted, also nobility can fall on hard times and tajong scabbards are pretty fragile. Marius‘ hilt is not a proper tajong hilt though and the whole ensemble may be regarded as modern art. However, the quality of this hilt is quite poor IMHO and a tapa kuda hilt would look much nicer. Considering the blade, a large Sumatran-style planar hilt might be an even better fit - very difficult to obtain though! Marius, I’m also wondering about the 40+ assertion. Any good evidence? Regards, Kai

29th May 2019, 11:42 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	David, I do not regard the mix & match thing with keris as a "homogenising" trend, this is not recent, it has been like this for a very long time, probably hundreds of years. Where we get the influence of a kraton, or perhaps even of a large group of people, we find a certain standardisation of dress, but even when dress becomes standardised, blades can come from anywhere. I'm not talking about Marius' keris here, my remarks are directed at keris in general. From at least Majapahit times, keris and other weapons were exported all over SE Asia as items of trade. For 2000 years or more people have moved from one place to another all over SE Asia. I have had a keris interest for around 65 years, and I started my interest with a small collection that had been put together beginning in about 1919. At age 30 I had put together around 3000 keris. Over all the time I have been interested in keris and have collected them I have regularly found blades that are identifiable with one area, in dress that is identifiable with a different area. It is of course true that we can only see the result of component parts of a keris being mixed, we do not know who actually did the mixing. Frankly, this does not trouble me in the slightest, the heart of a complete keris is the keris itself, the wilah, the blade, the dress is only that which covers it, exactly the same as clothes cover a man. The scabbard is female in nature, the hilt is protective in nature. In my thinking, if a man is free from societal restriction, how he dresses his keris is totally up to him. But the question remains:- who did the mix? This of course generates another question:- why should it be important if the mix was done in one place or another, or by one person or another? For a student of the keris the only really important thing is the keris itself, not what covers it. Because of its protective nature the hilt can also be important. But the scabbard, or wrongko, or warangka, or sarung is a female element, it means no more than a wife does to a man. A man might have a number of wives, either all at the one time or serially. If a man has, say, 4 wives at the same time, he will normally select the most suitable wife as his companion depending upon the need. If he has married serially and has had, say, a Swedish wife, then an Irish wife, then a Javanese wife, and then a Chinese wife, he has simply changed his wife in accordance with his changing needs in life. It is the same with a keris:- the dress we find a keris in has been given to it to suit its needs, and since that keris is virtually certain to have a much longer life than its scabbard, when eventually the present scabbard is changed for a new one, the new scabbard will fit the need at that time. It may seem strange to draw a parallel between a man and keris, but it is not. The keris represents the male element, just as the scabbard represents the female element. Do we value a man less because he has an Italian wife rather than a Japanese wife? I would hope not. Do we value a keris less because it has a Balinese scabbard rather than a Javanese scabbard? Again, I would hope not. As with people, the things that really count are quality and fitness for purpose. In both cases.