Jamdhar katari - a theory

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thank you very much. I will study your post many times. But what do you think, it is correct to compare the dagger of 2nd century and Kafir's dagger of the first post of thread. How old are Kafirs? )))

P.S. Maybe moderator will let Ariel and Mahratt write here in Russian? It is the native language for both, I think it will be better for all.

I would appreciate that as the research and material I have entered is of considerable time, effort and expense of many years ago and my sharing these notes here are in the spirit of constructive discussion instead of specious debate. Can you please tell me what dagger of 2nd century is referred to?

Without considerable research further it is hard to define how 'old' Kafirs are as the term is likely recent (i.e. last 300 yrs +) but to get into anthropological analysis would be far more complex. The term 'Kafir' as you certainly know means loosely 'infidel' in Islamic parlance, and their exodus from the regions now Nuristan were due to Afghan khanate invasion.


The suggestion to allowing Russian language debate to be included here is as you must know, completely counter productive and I will withhold any further comment toward that suggestion.I do appreciate your effort to maintain focus on the actual topic of this thread.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would appreciate that as the research and material I have entered is of considerable time, effort and expense of many years ago and my sharing these notes here are in the spirit of constructive discussion instead of specious debate. Can you please tell me what dagger of 2nd century is referred to?.

It is the very interesting field of research because the area around modern Afghanistan was the center of culture for centuries. I know a little in the field and it will be very interesting to learn how all of these developed over time.
This dagger:

[ariel]

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Mercenary,
I see that this site is bilingual: English and Russian.
Are you the author of the papers published there?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

http://indianfight.com/fighting-ascetics/

Mercenary,
I see that this site is bilingual: English and Russian.
Are you the author of the papers published there?

Yes, I write for the site but in popular manner because it is martial art site.

[ariel]

Mercenary,

Very good job!
One could argue with some of your statements and notice some inconsistencies, but this is a popular site, as you have mentioned.

You might want to convert some chapters into real papers and submit them to professional journals. They will have to be expanded and the argumentation tightened up, but you have excellent starting points. Journal of Royal Armories seems to be interested in Indian weapons and that might be your first choice. If I were you, I would send them first for unofficial reviews to some people here, who know a thing or two about Indian military practices ( Jim? Jens?). I am sure they would not refuse to help a colleague Forumite. If you think I can be of help, please feel free to get in touch.


Having undergone a careful and objective peer review by the editorial board and published in a respectable professional journal, your “ popular “ versions would acquire a real academic weight i.e. exactly what you want to achieve. And they have a real potential.

Once again,- nicely done!

[ariel]

Mahratt,

Let me clarify something.

First, my “coin” paper, proposing the likely Khazar source of the saber’s entry into the Arabian Islamic realm. What you have read was a quick draft of a proposal for an invited paper. Regretfully, it was published by a Ukrainian journal without my knowledge and approval, and I was not the only person who was dealt such a blow. I have reworked and expanded it, and it was published in a European peer-reviewed journal with full disclosure of its previous publication. It got positive reviews from several people in the field including Bashir Mohamed. Thus, your persistent sniping at it currently has no basis and carries no weight. You may relax.

I understand you are still smarting from my post here re-analyzing your paper on the genesis of the term Karud. Indeed, you found a perfect documentary source but completely mis-read it. Again, that paper was also published in a peer-reviewed journal and I got a letter from Robert Elgood who enthusiastically congratulated me on finally closing the minor but annoying chapter of terminology. Your source of information was properly cited and credited.

Having clarified these two issues, I again respectfully ask you to stop your ad hominem attacks on me. They are not constructive and only poison the atmosphere on this Forum. It would be better for everybody involved if you just ignore my entries.

I hope this is the last time I am forced to contact you.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Mahratt,

Let me clarify something.

First, my “coin” paper, proposing the likely Khazar source of the saber’s entry into the Arabian Islamic realm. What you have read was a quick draft of a proposal for an invited paper. Regretfully, it was published by a Ukrainian journal without my knowledge and approval, and I was not the only person who was dealt such a blow. I have reworked and expanded it, and it was published in a European peer-reviewed journal with full disclosure of its previous publication. It got positive reviews from several people in the field including Bashir Mohamed. Thus, your persistent sniping at it currently has no basis and carries no weight. You may relax.

I understand you are still smarting from my post here re-analyzing your paper on the genesis of the term Karud. Indeed, you found a perfect documentary source but completely mis-read it. Again, that paper was also published in a peer-reviewed journal and I got a letter from Robert Elgood who enthusiastically congratulated me on finally closing the minor but annoying chapter of terminology. Your source of information was properly cited and credited.

Having clarified these two issues, I again respectfully ask you to stop your ad hominem attacks on me. They are not constructive and only poison the atmosphere on this Forum. It would be better for everybody involved if you just ignore my entries.

I hope this is the last time I am forced to contact you.

Ariel,
I did not mention your name anywhere. Therefore, your "nervous" reaction surprises me. You questioned the meaning of the images. I, in turn, remembered that some researchers write scientific papers, exploring the images on the coins. As far as I remember, I did not mention your name anywhere in connection with such works. Or I'm wrong?
I am very glad that some of your scientific work on weapons has received positive feedback. Congratulations. Unfortunately, the public (most people) is not familiar with this scientific article, which you written. Maybe you will create a separate topic, lay out scans of pages and allow forum participants to enjoy your research?

I do not understand at all, in connection with which you remembered the term "Karud", especially in connection with me ... I think you should not get personal. Do I understand correctly that you have published an article about the term "Karud"? It would be very interesting to read it.

Ariel, we here on the forum communicate and discuss. If you have voiced some opinion, then you need to be prepared that you will be asked questions. And this is nothing personal. I hope you calm down. I think it will be right for you to think less about your ego. And then we can all communicate normally.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Mercenary,

Very good job!
One could argue with some of your statements and notice some inconsistencies, but this is a popular site, as you have mentioned.

You might want to convert some chapters into real papers and submit them to professional journals. They will have to be expanded and the argumentation tightened up, but you have excellent starting points. Journal of Royal Armories seems to be interested in Indian weapons and that might be your first choice. If I were you, I would send them first for unofficial reviews to some people here, who know a thing or two about Indian military practices ( Jim? Jens?). I am sure they would not refuse to help a colleague Forumite. If you think I can be of help, please feel free to get in touch.


Having undergone a careful and objective peer review by the editorial board and published in a respectable professional journal, your “ popular “ versions would acquire a real academic weight i.e. exactly what you want to achieve. And they have a real potential.

Once again,- nicely done!

Thank you very much for your opinion, it is very honorable for me. But publishing articles even in respected journals is not an end in itself. Studies in the field of historical weapons or military practices are not the main topics of my researches. That is why I am writing about them on the forums and on websites.

[Battara]

My suggestion boys is that we stick to the subject matter at hand in this thread. No more steering off course please.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thank you very much for your opinion, it is very honorable for me. But publishing articles even in respected journals is not an end in itself. Studies in the field of historical weapons or military practices are not the main topics of my researches. That is why I am writing about them on the forums and on websites.

Mercenary,
As they say, If it is not written ( and published) it did not happen.
At least, think about it.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The term 'Kafir' as you certainly know means loosely 'infidel' in Islamic parlance ...

Jim, for a moment i got tangled by the Kafir v Fakir term similarity.
As in several other cases, the term Kafir كافر used by Arab merchants was brought to Africa (by European navigators) and by some parallelism deviated its virtual attribution to a pejorative way to call the natives, where i first became acquainted with it.
Also Fakir seem to have its paralels, like those called Jogues by gentiles and Calândares by the Moors, as often alluded by Portuguese chroniclers. Hindu ascetics, João de Barros (1496-1570) typifies them as "in a mode of philosophers, whom leave the world in low and vile habit going by all places and pilgrimages and some times get apart to do penitence... Their only attire is composed by some skins that only cover their shameful parts". Other chroniclers say that "they only wear capes made of rags found in the trash". Barbosa (1500-1517 in India) says that "they have a good mood and are good looking; never comb their hair and use it braided". Garcia de Orta (1501-158) wrote that "they go floured with ashes all over their body, a means of sanctification; ashes made of cow dung, they sanctify themselves every morning in this way, which they call "curi".
Uploaded is how a Portuguese anonymous navigator artist saw them in the XVI century.
(Codice Casanatense)


.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for the insight into the 'fakir' matter. I have of course heard of these unusual mendicants but honestly knew little beyond the almost cliche' images. Great perspective.

Ariel, Mahratt and Mercenary,
Guys thank you so much for working toward better rapport here. You are all sound researchers and great writers in your chosen fields of study and while you may all have differences in cases, I think you enhance your skills with good discussion presenting objective supported evidence and observations which really benefit the readers here including myself. I know I enjoy reading threads which do this on topics I am not familiar with, and good flowing discussion without any personal friction makes all the difference.


I have learned that such sound discussion becomes a learning experience for all both participants and readers, which is the very reason I joined these forums over twenty years ago. It is a wonderful opportunity and privilege for which I am very grateful.