Ancient Zealot daggers

Jens Nordlunde · 13th April 2006, 04:28 PM

If you were an assassin, and your speciality was to sneak up on people from behind and cut their throats, I think a knife like the one shown by Ariel in post 1 might be handy, but for normal use rather unpractical.

Rick · 13th April 2006, 05:49 PM

It reminds me a bit of the shotel , also the korambit .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

The korambit was (IIRC) deployed with a sudden upward sweep thereby disemboweling the person attacked . One can also see this method as the primary purpose of the rencong .

Stomach wounds were invariably fatal .

fernando · 13th April 2006, 06:47 PM

Yes Ariel, Rielish qeriyoth.
But i had read that this was considered to be inconclusive, by modern Theologists and Bible exegetists, as not seeing much sense in a guy being named as from the place, and not as from such a place. The alternatives are that he was from an actual place in Samaria called Sycharis, hence ’sychar” [isch’sycar], the man of Sychar, allowing toponímy ‘ischarioth”.
On the other hand, some other experts do not exclude that he was named after Sicarii/Sicarius, in a non friendly association with the dagger circuit.
I came to see this version as a more plausible one, but not excluding that both versions could have existed, like Romans and non followers making a melange of both terms and atributions.
Sorry, this doesn't help to find details about the Sica.
Regards

fearn · 13th April 2006, 07:30 PM

Hi All,

Just saw this. My understanding of the term "sica" was that it was a product of Roman society. Basically, "sica" is a generic term for a single-edged, curved knives. This also had a strong social component: good Romans used straight, two-edged weapons such as the gladius (sword) and pugio (dagger). Only barbarians (and gladiators, and other such "uncultured scum"

) would use curved, single-edged blades.

So far as I know, "sica" did not define which side of the curve the edge was on. Sica is pretty obviously the predecessor to the modern english sickle, but so far as I know, it was perfectly possible for a sica to be sharpened on the outer edge instead. I think most people reading this could come up with a long list of knives that could be classified as "sica" in this way.

Given the social context of "straight, double-edged=good Roman" vs. "curved, single-edged=foreign," it's not surprising that there would be Jewish sicarii. What I think might get missed are the social and political connotations of the term.

F

fernando · 13th April 2006, 09:20 PM

Hi Fearn
The Romans dominating the territory with their culture, Latin terms and goods became popular to the locals. Apparently the Zealot Sica, in name and form, was a Roman weapon, admissibly with a concealling dimension, or in its known full pattern used by Thracian gladiators, said to have some 35 cms blade, and 45-55 cms total length. Naturally the Zealots, familiar with the Roman weapons, found this being the ideal piece for their trick, whether or not resized to each one's taste.
The origin of the term had no conotation, Sicarii being a social way of life, so to say. Soon after, with the persistent atitude of these extremist Zealots against Rome, and their mixing with growing numbers of vulgar robbers, the Latin was endorsed with a pejorative conotation, with the addition of "HIRED" to the Sicarii interpretation, these guys becoming what we call now Gun Men. Eventually we still use the term Sicário in Portuguese, with about the same conotation.
This is recently said to be the key for the charade with Judas recent (double ) naming research.
Assuming he was a Samarian, also the local Jewish tribes tended to call him Sicarius in a pejorative sense, and in a Roman fashion, aside he was from a village with a similar name sounding. Quicker the Romans would name him for his gear, and not from his birth place.
fernando

fearn · 14th April 2006, 04:05 AM

Thanks for the extra info, Fernando. That makes a lot of sense.

I think that the scraper that Tim is referring to is called a stirgil, though, not a sica.

F

Rivkin · 14th April 2006, 06:48 AM

To be honest, biblical archeology is what convinced me to not pursue a career in history - one of the more specalutive, corrupt and politicized fields of history out there. I would with great caution any religious writing that claims to be of the period.

I found Josephicus' book "Jewish antiquities". He says that the knife was a local development, similar in size to persian akinak, and in its curvature was like that of a sicae that romans use, so they became called sicae.

Concerning Judas being one of them - sicariis were viciously opposed to sanhedrin and generally to rich and hellenized, and especially to the sadducees. Most of the people they killed were those whom they seen as collaborators, not the romans per se. They constantly kidnapped members of high priest's family and even murdered one high priest himself.

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13th April 2006, 04:28 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	If you were an assassin, and your speciality was to sneak up on people from behind and cut their throats, I think a knife like the one shown by Ariel in post 1 might be handy, but for normal use rather unpractical.

13th April 2006, 05:49 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	It reminds me a bit of the shotel , also the korambit . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036 The korambit was (IIRC) deployed with a sudden upward sweep thereby disemboweling the person attacked . One can also see this method as the primary purpose of the rencong . Stomach wounds were invariably fatal .

13th April 2006, 06:47 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes Ariel, Rielish qeriyoth. But i had read that this was considered to be inconclusive, by modern Theologists and Bible exegetists, as not seeing much sense in a guy being named as from the place, and not as from such a place. The alternatives are that he was from an actual place in Samaria called Sycharis, hence ’sychar” [isch’sycar], the man of Sychar, allowing toponímy ‘ischarioth”. On the other hand, some other experts do not exclude that he was named after Sicarii/Sicarius, in a non friendly association with the dagger circuit. I came to see this version as a more plausible one, but not excluding that both versions could have existed, like Romans and non followers making a melange of both terms and atributions. Sorry, this doesn't help to find details about the Sica. Regards

13th April 2006, 07:30 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Just saw this. My understanding of the term "sica" was that it was a product of Roman society. Basically, "sica" is a generic term for a single-edged, curved knives. This also had a strong social component: good Romans used straight, two-edged weapons such as the gladius (sword) and pugio (dagger). Only barbarians (and gladiators, and other such "uncultured scum" ) would use curved, single-edged blades. So far as I know, "sica" did not define which side of the curve the edge was on. Sica is pretty obviously the predecessor to the modern english sickle, but so far as I know, it was perfectly possible for a sica to be sharpened on the outer edge instead. I think most people reading this could come up with a long list of knives that could be classified as "sica" in this way. Given the social context of "straight, double-edged=good Roman" vs. "curved, single-edged=foreign," it's not surprising that there would be Jewish sicarii. What I think might get missed are the social and political connotations of the term. F

13th April 2006, 09:20 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Fearn The Romans dominating the territory with their culture, Latin terms and goods became popular to the locals. Apparently the Zealot Sica, in name and form, was a Roman weapon, admissibly with a concealling dimension, or in its known full pattern used by Thracian gladiators, said to have some 35 cms blade, and 45-55 cms total length. Naturally the Zealots, familiar with the Roman weapons, found this being the ideal piece for their trick, whether or not resized to each one's taste. The origin of the term had no conotation, Sicarii being a social way of life, so to say. Soon after, with the persistent atitude of these extremist Zealots against Rome, and their mixing with growing numbers of vulgar robbers, the Latin was endorsed with a pejorative conotation, with the addition of "HIRED" to the Sicarii interpretation, these guys becoming what we call now Gun Men. Eventually we still use the term Sicário in Portuguese, with about the same conotation. This is recently said to be the key for the charade with Judas recent (double ) naming research. Assuming he was a Samarian, also the local Jewish tribes tended to call him Sicarius in a pejorative sense, and in a Roman fashion, aside he was from a village with a similar name sounding. Quicker the Romans would name him for his gear, and not from his birth place. fernando

14th April 2006, 04:05 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks for the extra info, Fernando. That makes a lot of sense. I think that the scraper that Tim is referring to is called a stirgil, though, not a sica. F

14th April 2006, 06:48 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	To be honest, biblical archeology is what convinced me to not pursue a career in history - one of the more specalutive, corrupt and politicized fields of history out there. I would with great caution any religious writing that claims to be of the period. I found Josephicus' book "Jewish antiquities". He says that the knife was a local development, similar in size to persian akinak, and in its curvature was like that of a sicae that romans use, so they became called sicae. Concerning Judas being one of them - sicariis were viciously opposed to sanhedrin and generally to rich and hellenized, and especially to the sadducees. Most of the people they killed were those whom they seen as collaborators, not the romans per se. They constantly kidnapped members of high priest's family and even murdered one high priest himself.