Help to identifying a type of (British) sword

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Belgian1

Hello from Belgium, to all members,
Yesterday, in a French auction room I noticed the passage of that seems to be an British sword of the type looked like a model 1831 but I did not know this type of deep carving on the blade, or this type of guard in the shape of S. In addition I did not know if there were badges with a rose surrounded by laurel on the British sword guard.
It was accompanied by a "scarce" Napoleonic scabbard for a An IX sword, maybe it is what made this lot interesting, except if the English sword seems a good model 1831 for you.

Thank you for your opinions and nice afternoon to all

Nice sabre Belgian!

After the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, both French and British forces were enthralled with the curved sabres of the Mamluk warriors. The influence of exotica extended to both England and the Continent, and officers began to adopt these kinds of 'pistol grip' (Ottoman) hilts on curved sabres.

The British M1831 sabres for general and staff officers was a regulation pattern but these swords were well in use by both French and British officers.

The decorative detail in the hilt may offer clues as to what context this sword was intended, also the deep relief on the blade which you say is carved. The British versions seem to have been typically acid etched and had makers names (one I had was to Manton & Co. Calcutta) and usually had ivory hilts.

I suspect this one is French, which may account for the accompanying scabbard, but I do not have the French pattern and military references, often thry can be found online ,I would search under French mameluke sabres.


These are very attractive and desirable sabres, and I would mention that the French military even established Mamluk units, and officers of these were of course French.


Perhaps someone out there better acquainted with French military swords might have more specific details.

[Madnumforce]

I agree with Jim that the scabbard fittings look pretty French. It's a pattern often found on the Chasseur à Cheval de la Garde saber. But on the other hand, that style of etching is about as unFrench as can be. This style of etching was never seen on French sabers, ever. But Matt Easton sold a Eickhorn made 1889 pattern Belgian cavalry officer saber that had a similar kind of etching. As for the style of the hilt, and mostly "crossguard" I can't really tell. I believe I never came across one that had the "shield" so bulky. Overall it's rather weird.

[Belgian1]

Thank you very much for your information that helps me to direct my research. Yes it is true that the engraving is very deep. I will think rather of a model used in India or for a "??? Indian Officer of the British Army ???". I say that because there is an engraving of Eastern type crossed swords surmounted by a typical Indian or Indo-Persian building ... (????) may be a furbisher working in India for the British Army ... . ????
I put enlargements of photos to better make you an impression of engravings and guard brass.
Have a good day

[Belgian1]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

I agree with Jim that the scabbard fittings look pretty French. It's a pattern often found on the Chasseur à Cheval de la Garde saber. But on the other hand, that style of etching is about as unFrench as can be. This style of etching was never seen on French sabers, ever. But Matt Easton sold a Eickhorn made 1889 pattern Belgian cavalry officer saber that had a similar kind of etching. As for the style of the hilt, and mostly "crossguard" I can't really tell. I believe I never came across one that had the "shield" so bulky. Overall it's rather weird.

Yes I agree for the scabbard. This scabbard does not belong to this sword, it was presented during the sale but it is a Napoleonic scabbard for a An IX Model Officer's Sword of a light Cavalry Regiment. (This thype of scabbard is more rare that to find the sword itself). But I agree that it is totally different origin that this (supposed 1831 type)
Kind regards

[fernando]

-

[Madnumforce]

Isn't the thin line six-pointed star a hugely common "mark" on British swords? I know it's part of the proof slug. Maybe it's a try at a British (Wilkinson, etc) blade counterfeit?

Matt Easton's video on the so-called "star of David" and proof slug

[Belgian1]

Yes indeed, it's a Wilkinson "superior steel test mark" for British swords.
I do not know if there is a lead in the star because I did not buy this lot. Personally I was interested in the scabbard because I have a Napoleonic officer sword AN IX and I was looking for this rare scabbard. I think this lot was too expensive for me ..... But actually, in the picture we can see letters in the center of this star.

[Belgian1]

I also see on guard the typical English flowers (rose, thistle and shamrock).
The engravings seem to me, however, of "good qualities" to be a copy of sword but also it seems that there are traces of blackened rusts which would allow to imagine some old age of the steel.
In any case very enigmatic sword that my impression seems as good as rare ... but it's my personal idea. Now I have to find similar examples because if it's a fake, it should be current and easy to find on the Internet and if it is rare, some day, a member of this Forum will enlighten us :-)
Now I regret not having outbid more ..... :-)

[Jim McDougall]

Now that I see the detail of the blade and hilt (beautifully photographed BTW!) I very much agree this is likely for a British officer of the Raj. Note the pavilion with flags and the cannon (I always think of the movie "The Far Pavilions" which was about the Raj).
Good point about the Star of Solomon at the forte, which indeed is seen on Wilkinson's swords in the same location as a proof slug surround, but this interpretation is not meant as a deception.
This symbol was primarily a symbol of strength and represents interlocking triangles (as I was told by Wilkinson-Latham years ago).
The use of this symbol is known in Muslim context very well, and is seen on some Arab swords, and here is likely placed similarly with plausibly Mughal connotation.

It seems that the reversed quillon terminals and guard may suggest an officers saber, perhaps an equerry, if I can recall Robson (which I don't have on hand at the moment).

That French scabbard is a find in itself, and with the values of these early French sabres would be most desirable to a collector looking for a match to one without scabbard (often bring backs from the field) .

Also, as I mentioned there were outfitters in India for military items and often specifically for officers. The deep relief scenes as seen on this blade recalls this style used on Indian tulwars and shamshir with scenes of the hunt and animals etc. and termed shikargh.

[Belgian1]

Hello and thank you Jim for these very interesting information. It is true that it would be nice if I finally bought the Robson.
But to return to this sword I also thought (but with much doubt) that it could be an officer of the Raj .... what you seem to confirm.
I hope to have soon the chance to see another sword like this one pass in front of me because this time I will have no hesitation .... ;-)

Have a nice day

[Hotspur]

It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault.
Likely Chinese made and fairly modern.

Cheers
GC