warangka for identification

David · 10th November 2018, 06:34 PM

Hi Paul. Are you the new owner of this keris. We have been discussing it on a keris Facebook page where it was suggested that it is a Sumatran keris with (perhaps) a West Coast Jawa influence. No one has suggested a possible Malaysian connection there and from what i have seen of the blade, that seems most likely to be Sumatran.

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2018, 01:06 AM

I am not going to guess what this might be, because it is a little bit unusual, and I'd really need it in my hand to support any guess.

However, to me, it looks very much like the ladrang type that starts in Tegal and runs all along the north coast into East Jawa.

Actually, when I saw the first example of this type it was introduced to me by a very well known collector who lived in Malang and who considered it to be an East Javanese ladrangan, I only found out much later that it could be found all the way through to Tegal.

If we strip it of the ornamental enhancements, what does the form look like?

If we consider the enhancement at the ri pandan, where do we often find that, or a similar, enhancement?

David · 11th November 2018, 01:52 AM

Just to add some more information into the mix here are some more complete photos of the ensemble.

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2018, 03:35 AM

OK, here's a guess:- North Coast Jawa, Pekalongan, or thereabouts, probably for a Chinese gentleman --- that's if everything belongs together from day one.

Jean · 11th November 2018, 11:22 AM

The scabbard looks from South Sumatra to me in spite of the unusual carvings, but the blade & hilt from Java North Coast indeed.

Bjorn · 11th November 2018, 06:08 PM

The basic shape of the wrongko also strikes me as north coast.
If the other components are original to the ensemble, then the jejer decorated with megamundung would seem to point in the same direction.

David · 12th November 2018, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK, here's a guess:- North Coast Jawa, Pekalongan, or thereabouts, probably for a Chinese gentleman --- that's if everything belongs together from day one.

So Alan, is there no possibility that this might be a Sumatran blade. That was my initial impression given a keris i have from Sumatra with some fairly similar features.

A. G. Maisey · 12th November 2018, 10:37 PM

David, anything is possible.

What I have given is a guess, it is not intended to be a supportable opinion.

In the blade itself I can see certain indicators that suggest North Coast.

In the hilt there is a very clear North Coast motif that is usually associated with Pekalongan.

I'd like the wrongko in hand before I said too much, but what I think I can see is that it has the profile of the Tegal - North Coast - East Jawa ladrangan style, and it appears to have pointed tips to the top (godongan, angkup), carved enhancements such as are on this wrongko, are common in wrongkos from East Jawa, Madura.

I don't think I've seen a South Sumatera wrongko with pointed tips like on this one.

Madura styles influence the North Coast, I do not know these carved enhancements in South Sumatera --- they might exist, but I have not seen them --- additionally, Chinese gentlemen are known to not be averse to moving away from traditional style if they wish, they usually are not bound to kraton dictates or family mores, they do what they wish, Pekalongan is a decidedly Chinese influenced part of Jawa.

Another thing to bear in mind is the Javanese influence in keris style on South Sumatera, especially Palembang. Palembang wilahan sometimes look exactly like Javanese wilahan, and it is impossible to know if they were made in Palembang or in Jawa.

The above is the rationale behind my guess, and it is a guess, not an opinion, I could only give an opinion in this case if I had the keris in question in my hand, I'm not good enough to do it from photos on a computer screen.

David · 12th November 2018, 11:30 PM

Thanks Alan. I appreciate your answer, even if it is only a guess. But i was really only asking about the blade with the understanding that blades sometime end up in dress from other locations.

Gustav · 12th November 2018, 11:43 PM

In the blade there are also equally strong indicators that suggest Palembang.

Gambar is a Palembang form, Gandar with squarish tip is typical for South Sumatra/Palembang.

Strong Chinese community with influence on art also in Palembang, see lacquer work, furniture, but the cloud motif, as suggested, points to North coast Java (Cirebon).
The carvings on hilt and Gambar obviously correspond. There could be a possibility this being an original ensemble.

11th November 2018, 01:52 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	Just to add some more information into the mix here are some more complete photos of the ensemble. Attached Images

11th November 2018, 11:22 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The scabbard looks from South Sumatra to me in spite of the unusual carvings, but the blade & hilt from Java North Coast indeed. Last edited by Jean; 11th November 2018 at 05:24 PM.

12th November 2018, 11:43 PM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	In the blade there are also equally strong indicators that suggest Palembang. Gambar is a Palembang form, Gandar with squarish tip is typical for South Sumatra/Palembang. Strong Chinese community with influence on art also in Palembang, see lacquer work, furniture, but the cloud motif, as suggested, points to North coast Java (Cirebon). The carvings on hilt and Gambar obviously correspond. There could be a possibility this being an original ensemble. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 13th November 2018 at 12:20 AM.

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10th November 2018, 06:34 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	Hi Paul. Are you the new owner of this keris. We have been discussing it on a keris Facebook page where it was suggested that it is a Sumatran keris with (perhaps) a West Coast Jawa influence. No one has suggested a possible Malaysian connection there and from what i have seen of the blade, that seems most likely to be Sumatran.

11th November 2018, 01:06 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I am not going to guess what this might be, because it is a little bit unusual, and I'd really need it in my hand to support any guess. However, to me, it looks very much like the ladrang type that starts in Tegal and runs all along the north coast into East Jawa. Actually, when I saw the first example of this type it was introduced to me by a very well known collector who lived in Malang and who considered it to be an East Javanese ladrangan, I only found out much later that it could be found all the way through to Tegal. If we strip it of the ornamental enhancements, what does the form look like? If we consider the enhancement at the ri pandan, where do we often find that, or a similar, enhancement?

11th November 2018, 03:35 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	OK, here's a guess:- North Coast Jawa, Pekalongan, or thereabouts, probably for a Chinese gentleman --- that's if everything belongs together from day one.

11th November 2018, 06:08 PM	#6
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	The basic shape of the wrongko also strikes me as north coast. If the other components are original to the ensemble, then the jejer decorated with megamundung would seem to point in the same direction.

12th November 2018, 10:37 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	David, anything is possible. What I have given is a guess, it is not intended to be a supportable opinion. In the blade itself I can see certain indicators that suggest North Coast. In the hilt there is a very clear North Coast motif that is usually associated with Pekalongan. I'd like the wrongko in hand before I said too much, but what I think I can see is that it has the profile of the Tegal - North Coast - East Jawa ladrangan style, and it appears to have pointed tips to the top (godongan, angkup), carved enhancements such as are on this wrongko, are common in wrongkos from East Jawa, Madura. I don't think I've seen a South Sumatera wrongko with pointed tips like on this one. Madura styles influence the North Coast, I do not know these carved enhancements in South Sumatera --- they might exist, but I have not seen them --- additionally, Chinese gentlemen are known to not be averse to moving away from traditional style if they wish, they usually are not bound to kraton dictates or family mores, they do what they wish, Pekalongan is a decidedly Chinese influenced part of Jawa. Another thing to bear in mind is the Javanese influence in keris style on South Sumatera, especially Palembang. Palembang wilahan sometimes look exactly like Javanese wilahan, and it is impossible to know if they were made in Palembang or in Jawa. The above is the rationale behind my guess, and it is a guess, not an opinion, I could only give an opinion in this case if I had the keris in question in my hand, I'm not good enough to do it from photos on a computer screen.

12th November 2018, 11:30 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	Thanks Alan. I appreciate your answer, even if it is only a guess. But i was really only asking about the blade with the understanding that blades sometime end up in dress from other locations.