Unusual nimcha blade: need help

Kubur · 3rd May 2018, 09:26 AM

Ariel, a small treat for you, another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade

ariel · 3rd May 2018, 02:05 PM

I hear you, guys.
But then p.198 in Elgood vol.1: virtually identical one unhesitantly attributed to Europe.

Can we reliably distinguish genuine European multifullered trade blades from their Indian copies?
Other than in cases of obvious European inscriptions?

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd May 2018, 04:48 PM

Must certainly not from pictures, and even if you have the blade in the hand, I doubt that you can be certain, as some of the Indian smiths were very good when it came to copying blades.

Kubur · 3rd May 2018, 06:34 PM

Well, let me add that the sword that I posted has a Caucasian blade with an inscription of Tippu Sultan from Mysore.
What a complicated story...

ariel · 5th May 2018, 02:50 AM

You must be joking:-)
Any real evidence?

Kubur · 5th May 2018, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

You must be joking:-)
Any real evidence?

http://www.tessier-sarrou.com/html/f...rdre=&aff=1&r=

Its good enough to me!

fernando · 5th May 2018, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

... another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade

North African style yes but, the blade travelling from the Caucasus to Mysore; where would have the hilt been made ? Has this sword ever seen Africa ?

.

ariel · 5th May 2018, 01:37 PM

My hat is off to the owner of the French auction house: he managed to weave a tale fancy enough to suck out €5000 ( plus, I gather, no less than 20% commission) out of some gullible schmuck.

Did he also have for sale Brooklyn Bridge with a graffiti “ Tipy ( sic!) Sultan lives matter”?

Kubur · 5th May 2018, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My hat is off to the owner of the French auction house: he managed to weave a tale fancy enough to suck out €5000 ( plus, I gather, no less than 20% commission) out of some gullible schmuck.

Did he also have for sale Brooklyn Bridge with a graffiti “ Tipy ( sic!) Sultan lives matter”?

Well it doesn't look like a fake at all... and why???

Plus the funny thing is that your sword is just supporting the provenance of the sword that I posted...

But if I follow your opinion then we come back to my first post, your sword might be a fake with a nimcha hilt and an Indian blade, both are easy to find for collectors...

I think you have to chose between: all fakes or both examples supporting each other...

TVV · 5th May 2018, 06:33 PM

I did not interpret Ariel's post to suggest the ivory hilted sword is not a genuine antique. I cannot speak for him, but it sounded like he doubted the Caucasus attribution. Personally, to me an Indian blade sounds more plausible - we know the Indians could produce excellent quality blades that looked indistinguishable from European blades, and if the sword was indeed collected in Mysore, that would seem a lot more plausible.

ariel · 6th May 2018, 03:45 AM

Theodor,

You hit the nail on the head: of course neither of the 2 nimchas is a “fake”. The blade on the French one is not Caucasian, that is as much as one can figure out from a single pic. And, BTW, doesn’t its handle look South Arabian rather than Moroccan?
The question is exactly as you say: is the blade a genuine European trade one or an outstanding Indian copy of it?
Somehow, I have never asked this question and never even thought about it.
Will be glad to get some hints.

TVV · 6th May 2018, 07:47 AM

Ariel,

Good question on the hilt. Assuming the blade is Indian and the whole sword collected in Mysore, it would be tempting to think it could be from Southern Arabia. However, I am afraid it is Algerian. Compare to pictures of a sword in the Rijksmuseum captured by the Dutch captain Michiel de Ruyter in the second half of the 17th century in terms of shape of hilt and guard. There is a whole group of these nimchas with tortoise shell on the hilt and brass guards in museum and private collections. The Bashir Mohammad book mentions that several were collected as trophies by the Spanish in 1732 following the siege of Oran and taken to the Real Armeria, and so this hilt is clearly of Maghrebi origin.

I am not sure why the auction house described the blade as made in the Caucasus. However, given that this type of nimcha hilt was in fashion during the century preceding Tipu's rule, it is actually possible for one to have traveled all the way to Mysore.

Teodor

ariel · 5th May 2018, 02:19 PM

I started to add some unprintable vocabulary, but caught myself in time:-)

3rd May 2018, 09:26 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Ariel, a small treat for you, another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade Attached Images

6th May 2018, 07:47 AM	#12
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,602	Ariel, Good question on the hilt. Assuming the blade is Indian and the whole sword collected in Mysore, it would be tempting to think it could be from Southern Arabia. However, I am afraid it is Algerian. Compare to pictures of a sword in the Rijksmuseum captured by the Dutch captain Michiel de Ruyter in the second half of the 17th century in terms of shape of hilt and guard. There is a whole group of these nimchas with tortoise shell on the hilt and brass guards in museum and private collections. The Bashir Mohammad book mentions that several were collected as trophies by the Spanish in 1732 following the siege of Oran and taken to the Real Armeria, and so this hilt is clearly of Maghrebi origin. I am not sure why the auction house described the blade as made in the Caucasus. However, given that this type of nimcha hilt was in fashion during the century preceding Tipu's rule, it is actually possible for one to have traveled all the way to Mysore. Teodor Attached Images

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3rd May 2018, 02:05 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I hear you, guys. But then p.198 in Elgood vol.1: virtually identical one unhesitantly attributed to Europe. Can we reliably distinguish genuine European multifullered trade blades from their Indian copies? Other than in cases of obvious European inscriptions?

3rd May 2018, 04:48 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Must certainly not from pictures, and even if you have the blade in the hand, I doubt that you can be certain, as some of the Indian smiths were very good when it came to copying blades.

3rd May 2018, 06:34 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well, let me add that the sword that I posted has a Caucasian blade with an inscription of Tippu Sultan from Mysore. What a complicated story...

5th May 2018, 02:50 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You must be joking:-) Any real evidence?

5th May 2018, 01:37 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My hat is off to the owner of the French auction house: he managed to weave a tale fancy enough to suck out €5000 ( plus, I gather, no less than 20% commission) out of some gullible schmuck. Did he also have for sale Brooklyn Bridge with a graffiti “ Tipy ( sic!) Sultan lives matter”?

5th May 2018, 06:33 PM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,602	I did not interpret Ariel's post to suggest the ivory hilted sword is not a genuine antique. I cannot speak for him, but it sounded like he doubted the Caucasus attribution. Personally, to me an Indian blade sounds more plausible - we know the Indians could produce excellent quality blades that looked indistinguishable from European blades, and if the sword was indeed collected in Mysore, that would seem a lot more plausible.

6th May 2018, 03:45 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Theodor, You hit the nail on the head: of course neither of the 2 nimchas is a “fake”. The blade on the French one is not Caucasian, that is as much as one can figure out from a single pic. And, BTW, doesn’t its handle look South Arabian rather than Moroccan? The question is exactly as you say: is the blade a genuine European trade one or an outstanding Indian copy of it? Somehow, I have never asked this question and never even thought about it. Will be glad to get some hints.

5th May 2018, 02:19 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I started to add some unprintable vocabulary, but caught myself in time:-)