Wootz Shamshir

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

I am still trying to decipher the lion pictogram. I understand that the "face-like" object over the lion's back most likely represents the sun, but does it also contain a stylized and partially inverted rendering of "Assad allah"?

Cheers,
Bryce

[ariel]

The cleanest wootz was at the bottom part of the ingot, the dirtiest with a lot of slag- at the top. The smith partially cut and bent the ingot to use the clean part for the edge and the sides, with the lower quality part of it forming the inner core of the blade. The long “crack” on the spine is the seam of that bending. It is usually filled with brass or silver wire. It is not a forging flaw, it is a hallmark of a wootz blade.

[Bryce]

G'day Ariel,

Thank you for answering this for me. Where did you learn this?

Cheers,

Bryce

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Ariel,

Thank you for answering this for me. Where did you learn this?

Cheers,

Bryce

Hello Bryce,

I have exactly the same question as you, where did Ariel learned this?

Because there is imho a temperature problem. Wootz is forged at low temperatures of 750-850°C (I forgot the exact value) but fire welding requires a temperature of ~1100°C. At this temperature the pattern would get lost. So I'm quite confused about the fire welding theory. I hope, Ariel can solve this problem.


Roland

[mariusgmioc]

All wootz blades I have appear to have exactly the same material for all their parts. Some are laminated/layered but some others appear to be monosteel.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

All wootz blades I have appear to have exactly the same material for all their parts. Some are laminated/layered but some others appear to be monosteel.

Hi Marius,

wootz blades are never laminated. That is the huge difference between wootz and pattern welded/laminated steel. Wootz got its pattern without any laminations. European researchers realised this difference not before the middle of the 19th ct..

I think the wootz pattern exists because the steel is never fully liquid during the melting process like nowadays. This causes a massive growth of the crystalline carbon structures we admire. The first job of the wootz-smith is to manipulate the ingot in different ways for different patterns (hammering, rolling etc.).

European swords were forged at a temperature of over 1000°C, the steel is almost yellow heated. Wootz is forged at the much lower temperatures I mentioned and is only cherry-red during the forging process, which is much cooler than yellow heat.

The main problem for modern researchers is that antique wootz artists made a huge secret around their techniques including telling lies to visitors.


Best wishes,
Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Roland, and thank you for the explanation!

To my knowledge, the term "laminated" refferring to steel implies the respective object is made of multiple layers of steel, and NOT necessarily of multiple layers of different steels. So basically, if you bend a hot bar of steel over itself and press the two bends together, you "laminate" the blade.

I believe there is some misconception among us that "laminated" steel has to be composed of layers of different steels.

And I certainly have seen, and maybe even have one, swords made of at least two layers of wootz steel.

But maybe I am wrong about that...

Regarding to wootz making technique... yes, it is still a secret despite the works of Anosov, Verhoeven and Pendray but there are some smiths today that consistently produce wootz that comes very close to the antique one (have a look at the link below)

http://gotscha.nl/uk-Bulat-Symposium-2011.htm

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

The cleanest wootz was at the bottom part of the ingot, the dirtiest with a lot of slag- at the top. The smith partially cut and bent the ingot to use the clean part for the edge and the sides, with the lower quality part of it forming the inner core of the blade. The long “crack” on the spine is the seam of that bending. It is usually filled with brass or silver wire. It is not a forging flaw, it is a hallmark of a wootz blade.

Thank you for this excellent explanation Ariel!
For metallurgy Neanderthals like me its great to have this kind of insight given that I can really grasp.