Were S. Asian weapons designed to be used together?

Roland_M · 27th November 2017, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Holding two things in one hand ls , quoting Talleyrand, worse than a crime, it is a mistake.

I'm sorry but this was a common practise for high skilled archers and here we see seven things in one hand.
The combination of a small shield and a dagger is more than just a guess, but I unfortunately forgot the source. Please search for "Indian Madu", this is very similar, a small shield with sharp elongations.

Roland

Mercenary · 27th November 2017, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

The combination of a small shield and a dagger is more than just a guess, but I unfortunately forgot the source. Please search for "Indian Madu", this is very similar, a small shield with sharp elongations.

Madu, maru etc it is not a shield with additional blades. It is two-sided dagger with additional shield or without it. In origin it is weapon of Hindu ascetics made from two horns. And it is one special weapon which itself and its use very good described in historical sources.

ariel · 27th November 2017, 10:21 PM

Roland,
Madu, Sainti ( Haladie) and Sentali shield are not "two things in one hand": they are shields with deliberately attached blades. The difference is that the single hand is gripping only one "handle". They are multi-purpose units.

Some shields have umbo ( often with a spike), that can be used to smash or stab the opponent: two purposes, but a single unit with a single grip. Does it mean that operating a shield with umbo means holding 2 items in one hand?

Old Circassian Jateh was a saber with bayonet tip. Its use was described as " first stabbing enemies, then slashing them". But the handle was the same.

There is a difference between a multipurpose weapon and two ( even 7!) separate weapons held in one hand, each semi-separately.

Battara · 27th November 2017, 11:45 PM

I will admit that there are some exceptions, ie. the old Scottish targe shield and dirk. While holding the targe the hand could also have a dirk in hand pointing downward.

(Though I guess technically one is a shield and the other a weapon, so......

)

shayde78 · 30th November 2017, 07:50 PM

The title of this thread is misleading, and I apologize for that. Per my first post, my intent was to ask about using two arms in the same hand (i.e., katar/bichwa or dhal/bichwa).

While I appreciate the spirited debate, I think a couple things are not being fully considered.
- Studying various forms of martial arts, it seems the purists are the one's engaging in fantasy. As an admittedly extreme example, if a modern sport fencer were to find her/himself in actual combat, they would likely not fare so well. The arms we all study on this site were used by both well-trained experts, and lay-people just trying to defend their lives. If there was any thought that holding two knives in one hand would give an advantage, then people did it.
I think the original point about looking at combined arms for hints at what weapons people were trying to wield simultaneously is a sound approach. We do have examples of combined arms that were so successful, we don't even think of them as such (the halberd is a combined pike/axe, for example).

- Secondly, the design of the bichwa specifically is being disregarded. It is intended to allow the fingers to be free to grasp any other object without impediment. Given this design, what else would be grasped. The best (perhaps only) suggestion in this thread is to allow for wrestling. that may well be. I have seen sources that claim it allowed for folks to claim walls and act like Indian ninjas. This seems unlikely.

I can have the bichwa on my hand and still use chopsticks (just as an example of the level of dexterity allowed; see image below). Use with a shield/dhal or katar should not be dismissed simply because it feels unconventional. If two weapons can be wielded effectively with one hand, I am certain folks would have done so (even if scoffed at by the professional soldiers). I hike/camp a lot, and you always see more novice people carrying WAY too much gear. It isn't practical, but they want to be sure they have everything they need. I feel the same mentality would apply.

Again, I appreciate the debate. My thoughts are offered with great respect for the expertise of this community.

As promise, the ancient art of wielding chopsticks and bichwa!

27th November 2017, 10:21 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Roland, Madu, Sainti ( Haladie) and Sentali shield are not "two things in one hand": they are shields with deliberately attached blades. The difference is that the single hand is gripping only one "handle". They are multi-purpose units. Some shields have umbo ( often with a spike), that can be used to smash or stab the opponent: two purposes, but a single unit with a single grip. Does it mean that operating a shield with umbo means holding 2 items in one hand? Old Circassian Jateh was a saber with bayonet tip. Its use was described as " first stabbing enemies, then slashing them". But the handle was the same. There is a difference between a multipurpose weapon and two ( even 7!) separate weapons held in one hand, each semi-separately. Attached Images

30th November 2017, 07:50 PM	#5
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	The title of this thread is misleading, and I apologize for that. Per my first post, my intent was to ask about using two arms in the same hand (i.e., katar/bichwa or dhal/bichwa). While I appreciate the spirited debate, I think a couple things are not being fully considered. - Studying various forms of martial arts, it seems the purists are the one's engaging in fantasy. As an admittedly extreme example, if a modern sport fencer were to find her/himself in actual combat, they would likely not fare so well. The arms we all study on this site were used by both well-trained experts, and lay-people just trying to defend their lives. If there was any thought that holding two knives in one hand would give an advantage, then people did it. I think the original point about looking at combined arms for hints at what weapons people were trying to wield simultaneously is a sound approach. We do have examples of combined arms that were so successful, we don't even think of them as such (the halberd is a combined pike/axe, for example). - Secondly, the design of the bichwa specifically is being disregarded. It is intended to allow the fingers to be free to grasp any other object without impediment. Given this design, what else would be grasped. The best (perhaps only) suggestion in this thread is to allow for wrestling. that may well be. I have seen sources that claim it allowed for folks to claim walls and act like Indian ninjas. This seems unlikely. I can have the bichwa on my hand and still use chopsticks (just as an example of the level of dexterity allowed; see image below). Use with a shield/dhal or katar should not be dismissed simply because it feels unconventional. If two weapons can be wielded effectively with one hand, I am certain folks would have done so (even if scoffed at by the professional soldiers). I hike/camp a lot, and you always see more novice people carrying WAY too much gear. It isn't practical, but they want to be sure they have everything they need. I feel the same mentality would apply. Again, I appreciate the debate. My thoughts are offered with great respect for the expertise of this community. As promise, the ancient art of wielding chopsticks and bichwa! Attached Images

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27th November 2017, 11:45 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I will admit that there are some exceptions, ie. the old Scottish targe shield and dirk. While holding the targe the hand could also have a dirk in hand pointing downward. (Though I guess technically one is a shield and the other a weapon, so...... )