2 Victorian Lances

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given.
Here is some artwork ~The black and white is Elandslaagt in the Boer War..and the other is Omdurman. The lance head and base are of the style made by Wilkinson.

[kronckew]

the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know.

one of the last true cavalry charges, in early ww1, a group of british cavalry drew sabres & charged a group from a german uhlan, brits has swords, the germans had the steel lance. they were a new unit and apparently not well trained, they broke and ran, only being saved when the survivors managed to get behind a farmer's barbed wire fence that stopped the pursuing brits as the horses refused to jump it.

and the poles never charged tanks with their lances in ww2 as german propaganda suggested...they did successfully charge a complacent german encampment that hadn't posted proper sentries and did great damage to it, and retreated in good order when some armour turned up. their lances were back in HQ for parades, they used firearms (and sabres) and were used more as mounted infantry. there were just not enough of them, especially with no air cover, and the russians attacking from the other side to aid their german allies.

[Jim McDougall]

Wayne, your description of the myth about Polish lancers in WWII was much better described than mine!
The idea of the pennon serving as a deterrent for over penetration sounds plausible, but it is notable that the German uhlan units typically removed them from their lances.
Certainly there would seem to be a certain plausibility for unit recognition, however there were not that many lancer regiments so as to be confused in action. At Balaclava (1854), there was only one, in front as in battle order, the 17th Lancers.
Actually lancer units usually had more of a 'national' pennon color combination. The British used red and white (taken from the Napoleonic Polish lancers that inspired them); while others had different colors (Germany black & white). Lance pennons were not regimentally specific, while guidons were.

There were lances with the cross bars in the Spanish cavalry, 18th c.
The lance became the primary weapon used by horsemen in colonial New Spain in the frontiers of northern Mexico and the Spanish southwest. The reason for this was often described as because of the unreliability of the firearms and lack of powder. The Spaniards were adept in the use of the lance (with American Indians quickly adopting same).

The cross bar on boar spears and such hunting weapons was to prevent the animal from 'riding up' the shaft to its attacker in wounded fury, not to restrict penetration.
However over penetration is a notable problem with the lance as the lancer becomes instantly disarmed. This is why lances have the lanyard straps at center, as the lance is used at that stance in jabbing thrusts, rather than full tilt full penetration . At San Pascual in the Mexican American war, the Californio lancers destroyed an American dragoon column with lances, but the dragoons were essentially unarmed. Their paper cartridges had been dampened by rain, it was dark night, unfamiliar terrain, the mounts were spent, and they could not effectively place the caps in their guns in the dark.
Most received many shallow wounds, with many fatal, but gruesomely lingering deaths.

As has been noted, for these reasons, lancers were much despised, and never received quarter as in many cavalry cases others were.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Wilkinson made these lances..This is a copy of the inscription.

[Terry K]

Very Nice Items!

[kronckew]

just a tidbit: 'male bamboo' used for lances is a thicker stronger species than normal bamboo, comes from india/south east asia, and will not grow in the UK climate. (i know someone who has tried ). it's fairly rare in its native area as well. hence the occasional shortages and substitution of ash, the traditional european pole arm wood of choice.

[Richard G]

I understand lancers were also unpopular because of the ease with which they could wander among the dead and fallen and by simply leaning on their lance from horseback kill those too injured ti fight back. I think this cold-blooded killing from a relatively safe distance was regarded as verging on the cowardly. Snipers suffer from a similar prejudice.
Regards
Richard

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by kronckew

the pennants were there not only to identify the regiment, but to prevent the over-penetration of the point, much like the cross bar on a boar spear. why they didn't just put a cross bar on them i do not know.

I don't buy that. Going at 20mph, and encountering someone's rib cage is a stop enough. If pennons were of any use as an additional stop, the working life of a lancer would be quite brief, with dislocated shoulders and dismounted riders. I'll abstain from commenting on the cross bar for the same reasons.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Lancers were somewhat despised by their enemies since the wounds inflicted by the lance were so horrific...thus falling off ones horse in a melee was a very bad place to be...as no quarter was given.

If this were the case, then the artillerymen would probably be drawn and quartered, when captured. I think you are repeating a myth.

[fernando]

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean .

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...

I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt; which contemporary eyewitness sources are you relying upon?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean .

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? .

Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand. Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme. I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie.
The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times. I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S.

With the notes on lancers being quite despised, it was that it was thought less than honorable in combat to contact your opponent at a safe distance, as well as the horrifying prospect of being skewered on a pole. Also there were the realities of the often not immediately fatal wounds which carried debris from clothing (or even pennons) deep into the wounds bringing about fatal and lingering sepsis.
I will try to find my notes which were actually discussing 'the use of the lance' as well as circumstances surrounding those who used them.

One of the true reasons there were as many fatalities in the famed charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo in 1815 was that in the chaos which rather inherently results as the horsemen broke through the French redoubts, the Greys became scattered and unable to regroup. As the survivors scattered through the smoke and din, and officers lost among this, the French lancers were moving through these areas and with stunned riders or injured on the ground did dispatch many more of the Greys.

While not necessarily uncommon in battle, dispatching the wounded enemy, it is the thought of the lance having such dastardly connotation, which led to more disdain. The use of sword, knife or pistol in carrying out this common practice does not absolve the act regardless of weapon used.

It is most interesting to look at the historical perspectives concerning a certain weapon as often the manner of their use or the persons using them offer us clues in identifying them as well as often the period in use.

[Victrix]

I found the following on the perceived ruthlessness of lancers:

”In the memoirs of Waterloo, the French lancers, galloping at will over the battlefield, sending saber-armed cavalry fleeing before them, and calmly stopping to finish off the wounded without even having to dismount, appear as an image of horror. Wyndham of the Scots Grays saw the lancers pursuing British dragoons who had lost their mounts and were trying to save themselves on foot. He noted the ruthlessness of the lancers' pursuit and watched them cut their victims down. Some British cavalrymen on foot slipped in the mud and tried to ward off the lance blows with their hands but without much success.
At Waterloo Sir Ponsonby together with his adjutant, Major Reignolds made a dash to own line, and a French lancer quickly began pursuing them. While they were crossing a plowed field, Ponsonby's horse got stuck in the mud in an instant, the lancer was upon him. Ponsonby threw his saber away and surrendered. Reignolds came to his aid, but the lancer compelled both of them to dismount under the threat of his lance. At that moment, a small group of Scots Grays happened to pass a short distance away, saw the three, and galloped shouting in their direction with the idea of liberating Sir Ponsonby. "In a flash, the Frenchman killed the general and his brigade major with 2 blows of his lance, then boldly charged the oncoming dragoons striking down 3 in less than a minute. The others abandoned the combat, completely incapable of holding their own against the enemy's deadly weapon." (Barbero - "The Battle" p 163)”

http://www.napolun.com/mirror/web2.a..._Napoleon.html

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, I thank you so much for that most telling account. That is exactly the scenario I was thinking of in my description, but could not find the source in which I had it.
There are of course many myths in the lore of battle, but many of the described notions held by historians are well founded such as this case.

Artillery levied a heavy toll on other ranks in battle, but I have never heard of any specific animosity toward them by troops as they were overrun or in many cases captured. Usually when defeat was imminent, guns would be abandoned but not without being 'spiked' or rendered otherwise useless if possible.

There are many sides of the perspectives of combat, and no particular account can say exactly how matters were between combatants. In this case, a contemporary account is shown regarding the lancers which illustrates the disdain for them as described.

[Victrix]

Yes thank you Jim, the account does seem to support your notion. Callous but brave seems a good description of the lancers. Sticking down the poor unarmed General Ponsonby does not seem like good sport, although charging the numerically superior dragoons was undeniably brave.