The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 11th April 2012, 04:54 AM #230

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Absolutely brilliant research Ibrahiim!!! Now thats what Im talkin' about!

The mysterious (better described as devious) Hollow Sword Blade Co. was written about in some degree by J.D.Aylward in 1948 and in 1962. Apparantly the fanciful notion of these mercury filled blades (as described in an 1859 journal entry) was noted in analogy in a poem by Henry More in 1647 describing 'running quicksilver' in the back of a sword. It seems that from here the idea of increasing impetus in thrust or cut with either this unlikely channeled liquid metal or moving weight sliding on a rod entered popular culture via Sir Walter Scott, and subsequent authors.

These concepts reappeared in the imaginations of 19th century writers, especially in America with the Bowie knife phenomenon and the novel "The Iron Mistress" which many people perceived as factual history of Bowie's knife.

The 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' name I believe has become loosely associated to the enterprises at Hounslow Heath in the early to latter mid 17th century and the German smiths who worked there. The shops there were largely closed by the late 1660s with most of the makers leaving.
I think what is most puzzling is that during the English civil wars and later in conflicts in Ireland there are references to a 'Hollow Sword Co.' which made swords for all sides, and often received payment in lieu of currency with forfeited estates in Ireland. After 1700 they began realizing profits by selling off these estates.

Yet other references claim that the Hollow Sword Blade Company was started around 1690, and another reference describes the firm being started by Hermann Mohll nearly Shotley Bridge (near Newcastle). Mohll ran afoul of the law in 1703 when he was caught bringing in illegally imported German blades. These were probably the 'hollow ground' blades favored for the smallswords becoming popular, which were already partially complete and finished there at Shotley Bridge. It would seem quite possible that the term may have been misperceived and perhaps interpolated with the notions of mercury filled channeled blades and sensationalized by contemporaries writing for effect.

It seems further that the financial ventures undertaken under this unusual name must have derived from the holdings of these swordmaking enterprises in the form of these confiscated Irish estates, and assembled under the Hollow Sword Blade Co. name. Hermann Mohll, who was in the one instance noted as the founder, continued operating after his troubles in 1703 as Hermann Mohll & Son while the Hollow Sword Blade Co. continued as such until it dissolved in 1720. This suggests to me that the firm begun by Mohll (the ancestor of the well known Robert Mole firm of Birmingham, England eventually acquired by Wilkinson) was separate from the Hollow Blade Co.

While of course not directly associated with the theme of this thread on markings, it is interesting history that has to do with the British blademaking ancestry and Solingen makers. Just as with our study of the fascinating history of makers marks, this is the lore of edged weapons which gives them such fantastic dimension.

All the very best,]
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 25th May 2012, 05:14 PM #231

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID.

You may also check the respective discussion thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597


Any help will be much welcome.

.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 02:10 AM #232

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Fernando, I cannot help my curiosity on these marks but I cannot make out what the forte mark is since it is partly obscured or worn away, in any case seems incomplete.
The undulating line it seems was well explained by Jasper in the other thread showing the latteen wavy line on medieval blade, noting its Christian symbolism .

I am wondering if it is possible that a mark like this on a rapier could perhaps allude to the fabled flamberge or wavy blades romanticized in some medieval swords and later rapiers as well. While there is some conflict in terminology with these blades termed flammard and flambard and the flamberge name for the sword of Renaud (It. Rinaldo), it does seem symbolically important for 'heroic' or powerful swords. I would admit this is perhaps a fanciful suggestion, but still it seemed worthy of note in addition to the well placed note by Jasper, with consideration to both.

Naturally I would hope others might have seen this type mark on other blades, or might offer thier views.
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[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:07 AM #233


Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by fernando
I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID. (Quote)

You may also check the respective discussion thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597

Any help will be much welcome. (Quote)

.
Salaams fernando. I have read the supporting thread ( and about 10 hours of background research into Spanish swords though I have only scraped the surface so far ~it is a vast subject) As well as our own resource I note for forum a couple of back up introductory pieces which will help break the ice for newcomers to the style viz;

http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascani...rara_swords.pdf
http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/jineta-sword.htm
gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/download/204/206

I include here a fascinating metalurgical research project done on Spanish blades viz;
http://csic.academia.edu/MarcGener/...d_rapier_blades

I note that your blade mark is not amongst the 90 plus marks in your earlier thread on Spanish blade marks .. could it be an old Arabic stamp ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:05 PM #234

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding entries Ibrahiim! especially Marc's work on the metallurgy of many of these blades. The presence of Muslim swordsmiths in Spain is well established in medieval times and of course the jineta weapons as well. The diffusion between the processes and techniques between them and the Frankish smiths is also well known.
While there may be a degree of connection developmentally it is not as far as I know clearly defined other than obvious influences being exchanged.
The power of Solingens ever increasing production by the 17th and 18th century had superceded that of Toledo and blades were produced for the markets of Spain and Portugal as well as so many others.

Although these blades were characteristically marked with inscriptions, names and marks to appeal to these markets, I am not sure of any Islamic mark or inscription of earlier Spanish makers of those earlier periods which might have carried forth into this later context.

It is known however, that many earlier heroic and romanticized notions from European and perhaps even earlier Frankish period/Viking periods were often included on blades along with these otherwise 'tailored' markings.

Having noted that, in further consideration of the 'wavy' blade idea to allude to fabled swords in chivalry, I completely forgot about Lee Jones important work on medieval blades "The Serpent in the Sword" . In this discussion on metallurgy of early medieval blades, he notes the cite from Paul DuChaillu (1889, "The Viking Age") where Skeggi instructs Kormak on the use of his sword Skofnung; "...if thou comest to the fighting place, sit alone and draw it. Hold up the blade and blow on it, then a small snake will creep from under the guard". These words metaphorically are meant to remind him to respect the sword and control his impulsiveness.

Perhaps this perception seen inlaid on medieval blades such as shown by Jasper of the 13th c. example may have been carried forth in marks used along with others which survived as well, such as the crosses, cross and orb and others. Again admittedly speculative, but worthy of consideration.
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[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:12 PM #235

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Thanks for your input Jim.
You are right in that the mark in the forte is somehow incomplete. However rather than worn by use, it was in fact a job negleted by its author; actualy the (same) mark on the other side is in a much worse condition.
The guy that apllied these marks wasn't minimally worried with their visibility. This is (also) why i think this not a maker's mark but the "punzon" of an inspector; while a displicent inspector or/and a much worn tool. But obviously this is my speculation; not the slightest evidence.
The undulating line is not that rare. I have already seen it (at least) in sword loose blade i saw once for sale, which was actualy acquired by a guy i know.
I just don't know if such one also had that V like simbol in its end. I have gone through my books looking for it, as i am sure i saw this symbol times before.
Maybe on of these days ...
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[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 08:57 PM #236

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Shalom Ibrahiim,
No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark.
... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story.
No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that.
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