The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 8th December 2007, 02:39 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

I would like to thank David for bringing this excellent example to this thread, as I think it is important to note that these thin rapier blades were indeed mounted on the Indian khanda hilts. We have been discussing this particular sword on a concurrent thread resulting in some outstanding discussion and observations on these foreign blades and their effect on the use of these swords in India.
As David has kindly shown here, and the reason I thought the sword should be posted in this thread is the linear arrangement of four punched dots, which seems surmounted by another. As Fernando has well observed, the magick or talismanic numbers 1441,1414 are often represented in various ways, and are significant in the symbolism often found in markings on these blades.
The use of dots as a numeric in association with other key markings seems well represented in many examples, especially the 'anchors' and of course the 'sickle' marks, but seems quite unusual in this linear fashion.

The number three has obvious connotation, and that of four may well be represented as suggested, in multiplied palindrome or possibly the very simple symbolism of the four elements, the four cardinal directions etc. In trying to establish allegory, possibly the world? wholeness? It is difficult to imagine without more markings along with the dots.

I'd like to hear others thoughts, and as always, hope for other examples of blades with systemic arrangement of dots on blades..with or without other marks.
David, would you mind showing the entire 'firangi' as I'd like to illustrate again a classic example of 'foreign' blades in an important ethnographic weapon that perfectly exemplifies the importance of out topic.
Thank you so much again !
All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 9th December 2007, 04:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff Pringle
Member

Join Date: Nov 2005

Recently I was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC, and saw in one of their displays of rapiers an example with eyebrow markings in the fuller (very similar to the eyebrows seen on many later, more eastern blades), dated to the late 1500s. Also, an example with the letter �S� stamped into the blade at the end of the fuller, quite similar to a knife I have whose blade is the cut down remains of a 17th C. rapier. Could the �S� be for �Solingen,� or is that too obvious?
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[fernando]

Old 9th December 2007, 06:45 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Jeff, thank you so much for joining us here! Your suggestion on the 'S' on the rapier blade is absolutely not 'too' obvious. I really dont consider anything in that category, as too often the case of not being able to see the forest for the trees comes into play.
"...discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, and thinking what no one else has thought".
-Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893-1986)

While I cannot say this is the case here, I think it is worth considering and definitely think we should review instances of this 'S' occurring on blades and see what can be found. It should be noted that there were prominant Spanish smiths and marks such as 'Sebastian' (which appears singularly on one obviously German blade 17th c. and the 'Sahagun' which also occurs without secondary name).

Thank you again Jeff, excellent entry! Let's see what we can find

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 12th December 2007, 02:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I regret not having been able to help feeding this vital thread some further. Museums don't allow for pictures, and book authors don't respond to query emails .
I can only refer to two more examples inventoried in the Viscount of Pindela collection, which is now partly exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, in Guimarães ... with a rope keeping the visitors at distance
One of them, item #70 of the book, a XVIII century cast brass hilt sword with later engraving works, with a curved blade, has in both sides the following inscription:
X EN XX MENÊ XX
In the end of the inscription there is a symbol, naturaly the maker's punction, which represents an anchor, with its top decorated in cross ... as per the book quotation.
The other one, item #73 of the book, a XVIII century sword, with a cofin shaped pommel. The blade, narrow but elegant, has a little fuller and, inside it, in both sides, in major font, the following legend:
" IHN " MINI "

I have emailed the Author of "As Armas e os Barões", asking him to clarify his definition of "fear of God", concerning the legend IN MENE in a sword contained in his book, but i had no answer up to now.

I know the above isn't much; i just hope it's better than nothing

All the best
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 12th December 2007, 11:03 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thanks to this excellent thread I think I see a trend. The "anchors" seem to be associated with Spanish blades and the Orb and crosses "Reich Apples" with Solingen? Any observations for, or against this trend?

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 06:05 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff and Fernando,
Its good to have you guys back at it here!!
Jeff, you may have something there. While the 'anchor' seems inclined to the Spanish blades, and as you note, the cross and orb seem aligned with the Solingen blades...what is puzzling is the anchors on the German blades with spurious Spanish signatures and inscriptions. Conversely, I dont think the orb and cross occurs on Spanish or Portuguese blades does it?

Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. As far as I can find, the word 'mene' seems to have connections to a Biblical allegory in the Book of Daniel, and has to do with the foretelling of the fall of Babylon in the appearance of mysterious symbols on the kings wall. The term 'mene' is interpreted by Daniel to mean that God had numbered the days of his kingdom. Is has been discovered that the term also represented a monetary value, but that has been explained allegorically to note the number interpretation.
This story has led to the well known phrase, "the writing is on the wall" and possibly the inscription has some similar meaning i.e. your days are numbered or something on these lines. Perhaps the rather morose theme of the sword with the coffin shaped pommel corresponded with the inscription?

On the one blade it is interesting that the IHN is repeated three times. It seems that often acronyms, symbols or marks are repeated in this manner noting the numeric significance in emphasizing the symbolism. i.e. the kings head mark repeated four times in line; ANDREA FERARA repeated four times in sequence, and these 'X's often occurring in twos punctuating phrases or words. These are the examples that come to mind, but surely there are others.

Thanks for keeping us going guys!!!

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 13th December 2007, 10:08 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,023

Hi Jim,
Just a little detail ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Fernando, the phrase/inscription you have keyed in, the EN MENE or IN MENE, or IHN MENE is really a puzzler. Jim (Quote).


I meant IHN MINI and not IHN MENE. This is another variation of the inscription, also often seen, as already quoted by Juan L. Calvo and Evans ( see post #83 ). Would this different "spelling" somehow misguide the assumption that these legends are connected with the allegory in the book of Daniel ... or not ?
Within my ignorance, i think the deciphering of this expression and its variants could reside somewhere else.
Fernando
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