Silver Keris

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

But two very different animals, one is an antique keris (page 218/19), the other one is modern art.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

Marius, your keris that you have linked to may well have been made in Jawa, but it was not made for a Javanese audience. It is a nicely crafted art piece probably aimed at a Western consumer like yourself. It bares very little resemblance to the examples shown in the Groneman book and serves a completely different intent and purpose.

[A. G. Maisey]

Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.

Thanks for your input on this Alan. I am aware of all that you say, but my logic was that collectors within the Indonesian market would be more interested in Kamardikan keris that kept within the "lexicon" of accepted Indonesian iconography. Since this keris steps well outside that with its depiction of winged dragons and elephant-headed serpents i assumed it was intended for a different market of collectors.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the local market in Indonesia is very, very big, and pretty enthusiastic. The people in that market have areas of interest that cover all aspects. The type of keris such as Marius has fits into one niche of that market.

Going back into the early 1980's there was a keris exhibition held in Solo by the ASKI boys, and some of those makers exhibited work that explored the idea of the keris as a canvas for art, some of that art was decidedly outside the keris tradition. Some people were highly critical of it:-

"yes, its art, but is it a keris!!???"

Other people were very impressed by that work, and bought it.

In fact, going back into the 19th century old keris were being used as the canvas for art work.

Some Indonesian collectors like this sort of work, others detest it.The distinction is probably pretty much similar to art lovers in the Western World who like modern art, and those who are hardcore traditionalists.

My personal attitude is that in a comprehensive keris collection we should not discriminate against any particular type of keris. But the key word here is "comprehensive", and not all collections are comprehensive, some people prefer to target a particular class of keris.

As for the lexicon of local iconography, in my experience very, very few people in Indonesia who are involved with the keris have much understanding of this at all.

The dominant culture in Indonesia is Javanese culture. This has always been true and is true now. There is a core of Javanese values, but the peripherals change constantly and always have. Jawa accepts and adapts everything that comes into the society.

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you gentlemen for your input, and I am happy I learned new things about my Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga would be keris.

However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java. And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).

So I reiterate my original question:

why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?!

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?!

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.

"why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?"

One reason is the description of the Hollenstedt-exhibition, which shows similar examples. Another is the smooth blade. I can make one or two pictures, to demonstrate clearly, that the surface is very smooth, almost mirror finished.

In my opinion it would be impossible to weld a figure onto a Pamor-blade without destryoing the Pamor. Welding two pieces of steel together, requires a temperature bewteen 1200 and 1300°C. On a finished blade, this will have massive effects. Directly around the figure the pamor is undisturbed.

The overall condition of the blade is just too bad for a 10 year old blade without the tiniest signs of artifical aging.


Regards,
Roland

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java.

Hello Marius,

this I haven't asked you. I've asked "in this execusion"! Java was in great parts before it get islamicized Hindu, so it's clear that you can see still Ganesha. Garuda is the heraldic symbol of Indonesia so also not a great surprise to see it also in the Muslim areas.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).

You give the answer byself, the ones you speak about are fairly recent and they will have a very different execusion. And the one antique keris with Ganesha or better elephant you have shown is very different.

Regards,
Detlef