Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Pusaka , please ........
Do you really think these guys are actually buying meteorite on ebay to make keris with ?

Especially when the only way you could tell if it was real would be through destructive testing !?!

Please pardon my skepticism .

O thanks for your skepticism, I find it most refreshing

Rick · 13th March 2006, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

O thanks for your skepticism, I find it most refreshing

Unfortunately I cannot say the same for your naivete .

You have a long road of learning (about keris culture and Indonesia) ahead of you young man ; and unless you can be present for the forging of your 'meteorite' keris and actually see the meteorite incorporated into the wilah I fear very much that you will be duped .

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 12:42 PM

My comment was more to the manner in which you said it then what you said, Where I come from this >>> (

)is an insult so why use it? Is there any need to be rude??

BluErf · 13th March 2006, 01:53 PM

Ok, its time to take a deep breath, everyone...

nechesh · 13th March 2006, 03:19 PM

Well Pusaka, i wouldn't get too hung up on emoticons. I have never personally seen (

) as a direct insult, just simply sarcasm. Don't lose sight of the content because of it. I say this because whether or nor you like the way Rick said it, i would agree with him that the likelihood of your commissioned meteorite keris not having any actual meteorite in it could be pretty high and it would be nearly impossible to tell one way or the other once the keris is forged.
So a huge caveat emptor here, my friend.

Rick · 13th March 2006, 04:00 PM

< Deep breath taken ; thank you Kai Wee >

Pusaka , if you read post #3 I think you would have seen the following passage :

" So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it
hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out
of 10 this way. You need to "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a
good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron
bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as
getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself
without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called). "

The Pandai Keris forges of Jawa and Madura are not flush with Yoder power hammers and all sorts of modern equipment to do their work . They would doubtless still use the old method by hand as described in the above passage by Dr. Hrisoulas .

So when you say :

" I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. "

My eyes roll ; why would an Indonesian Pandai keris (not Empu) waste his money (what little he has) bidding for meteor pieces on ebay for inclusion into the pamor of a keris which when finished cannot be proven to have meteoritic pamor without destructive testing when it would be so much easier just to claim meteoritic origin ?

So I guess that it would be *possible* for your scenario to happen but IMO it's very unlikely .

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 05:42 PM

I was told of a different method of making the meteorite pamor. It is true that when you heat a meteorite it will crumble into bits. I was told that iron filings are mixed with the meteorite and then pounded together to form a usable pamor material.

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 06:18 PM

According to Ki Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo: http://www.joglosemar.co.id/whos/djeno.html

“Physically, the materials for manufacturing must be prepared such as, 12 Kg of Iron; 0.5 Kg of Nickel, 100 grams of meteorite”

This means that a typical meteorite pamor keris consists of 95% Iron, 4% Nickel and only 1% meteorite material.

It would indeed be impossible to detect that 1% meteorite content without chemical analysis.

I’m guessing that he adds the extra nickel to obtain a bright pamor as the meteorite if used without adding nickel would probably produce a dull pamor.

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13th March 2006, 12:42 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	My comment was more to the manner in which you said it then what you said, Where I come from this >>> ( )is an insult so why use it? Is there any need to be rude?? Last edited by Pusaka; 13th March 2006 at 01:05 PM.

13th March 2006, 01:53 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, its time to take a deep breath, everyone...

13th March 2006, 03:19 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Pusaka, i wouldn't get too hung up on emoticons. I have never personally seen ( ) as a direct insult, just simply sarcasm. Don't lose sight of the content because of it. I say this because whether or nor you like the way Rick said it, i would agree with him that the likelihood of your commissioned meteorite keris not having any actual meteorite in it could be pretty high and it would be nearly impossible to tell one way or the other once the keris is forged. So a huge caveat emptor here, my friend.

13th March 2006, 04:00 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	< Deep breath taken ; thank you Kai Wee > Pusaka , if you read post #3 I think you would have seen the following passage : " So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out of 10 this way. You need to "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called). " The Pandai Keris forges of Jawa and Madura are not flush with Yoder power hammers and all sorts of modern equipment to do their work . They would doubtless still use the old method by hand as described in the above passage by Dr. Hrisoulas . So when you say : " I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. " My eyes roll ; why would an Indonesian Pandai keris (not Empu) waste his money (what little he has) bidding for meteor pieces on ebay for inclusion into the pamor of a keris which when finished cannot be proven to have meteoritic pamor without destructive testing when it would be so much easier just to claim meteoritic origin ? So I guess that it would be possible for your scenario to happen but IMO it's very unlikely .

13th March 2006, 05:42 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I was told of a different method of making the meteorite pamor. It is true that when you heat a meteorite it will crumble into bits. I was told that iron filings are mixed with the meteorite and then pounded together to form a usable pamor material.

13th March 2006, 06:18 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	According to Ki Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo: http://www.joglosemar.co.id/whos/djeno.html “Physically, the materials for manufacturing must be prepared such as, 12 Kg of Iron; 0.5 Kg of Nickel, 100 grams of meteorite” This means that a typical meteorite pamor keris consists of 95% Iron, 4% Nickel and only 1% meteorite material. It would indeed be impossible to detect that 1% meteorite content without chemical analysis. I’m guessing that he adds the extra nickel to obtain a bright pamor as the meteorite if used without adding nickel would probably produce a dull pamor.