Gustav's Discovery

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kai, there might well be a distinct name for the element that begins a ron dha, reading from the left, but I do not know it, and in my experience this break down of terminology is almost never used , mostly we just refer to the ron dha as an integral unit.

Frankly I see all this name business as total, absolute useless info, its not knowledge, it doesn't demonstrate one single thing except that some person, or group of people have stuck a name on something.

I did not put in a couple of hours finding, preparing and posting those images to provide information in respect of names, I did it because I wanted people to see how bl**dy pointless this stupid name game is.

The names used for various things, in this case keris elements, or really, composition of a keris element in this case, vary from place to place, time to time, person to person, group to group. The same people at different times will use the same word to refer to different features. The whole exercise of trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of ever changing names is pointless.

If we speak Javanese and use these words face to face as descriptors of something, the names can make sense, but used as solid, written in stone names that are universally understandable in text forever, the whole thing is just a waste of time. Forget the names, concentrate on the meaning of the symbol, the names mean nothing, they are all euphemisms given at the lowest level of knowledge in any case.

Thank you Alan and I agree with your conclusion!

[drdavid]

Thanks Alan
I certainly understand your comments on the 'name game'. The reason I asked what actually composes the ron dha was that if it were the space as opposed to the surrounds, that would conceptually match some of the meanings given to OM (or AUM), such as 'the beginning of everything'
cheers
DrDavid

[rasdan]

I have drawn this diagram to help with our discussion in this thread, but I have left out the gunungan and buntut mimi part.

I think originally the top and bottom ri pandan have the same shape (hence the similar name) - hooked thorn; with the top one facing up, the bottom one facing down. In time, the bottom one gets modified with a notch on top of it.

Please correct me if there are any mistakes/disagreements. I could miss some things discussed above as I browsed through it rather quickly.

[Gustav]

Very interesting.

Just an observating remark - Rasdan, you got something wrong regarding the Keris 5.

Keris 5 isn't the "latest version for Balinese Keris". It is in fact quite early.

Regarding the Balinese cutting unintentional "North Coast Dha's" besides a normal one on it, I will leave it to Balinese.

Also Keris 6 isn't "a slightly later Balinese keris".

But that's not so important.

[rasdan]

Thanks Gustav. Yes keris 6 is probably not Balinese, I said "unless keris in Figure 6 a slightly later Balinese keris". I think I've seen keris 6 somewhere in Kris Disk, so it may be from 1600s-1700, but I think I haven't seen keris 5 before. Can you please provide us with the estimated age of keris 5? Any possibility that keris 5 is not Balinese but dressed in Balinese dress?

Yeah, what I put up is just my quick observation I didn't align it with the estimated age (which will probably show that I am wrong) as I am quite occupied right now.

The reason I think the north coast people used the "bump Dha" is because of the influence of the shallow and wide Pajajaran type dha shown in the diagram in post #10 above.

BTW, if the gap in keris 6 is actually a Dha, then we can probably conclude that the "north coast" dha theory to rest. Unless we can justify having two types of dha on a set of greneng- which i think is unlikely.

[Gustav]

Rasdan, I see, now I got some questions from you.

Before making questions, I would suggest you to do some home work. I have done mine, and that quite meticulously - please do yours.

Actually instead of "I didn't align it with the estimated age" as you described it now, you simply declared the Keris 5 as "much later Balinese Keris", in picture "latest version for Balinese Keris", to fit in your theory. That is a not so fine difference.

Regarding the whole "Bump Dha" thing, I think, at first we must be able to differentiate between external and internal details, which should be not so complicated, because on all Kerisses in question, as distinguished from most Nem-Neman Keris, the Greneng itself is external.

Ron Dha is an indentation, your "Bump Dha" on these Kerisses is an protrusion. You are searching for Ron Dha in wrong place.

[Gustav]

For people lowing questions, finally a couple from me:

If you look at Kembang Kacang on Keris 2, 4 and 6, and compare it proportionally to its Gandhik, what do you see?

Do we associate such proportion on Keris with full Ricikan with North Coast Java (except for Keris 4. Or perhaps it's also a NCJ dressed as Balinese?)?

Or do we associate it perhaps with an other region?

Is the proportion of KK compared to Gandhik (and Greneg/Jenggot) the only conspicuous thing we notice on Keris 4, not associated with common 19th cent. Bali Keris?

Where have we seen something similar?