Pattern Welded Straight Kris

Lee · 18th June 2017, 05:14 PM

Rick, considering their geographic and cultural proximity, I would surmise that the associated meanings of such markings from the realm of the keris world must have carried on at least to some extent in the mindsets and work of Moro smiths.

Perhaps entirely unassociated except by the nature of the medium of forged iron, iron blade inlays are also frequently observed in European Migration Period and Viking Age swords (even the sword in the logo at top of this page has one!) and such inlays do include swirls. I have just finished reading a most engaging doctoral thesis on iron inlays in late Iron Age Finland - Marks of Fire, Value and Faith Swords with Ferrous Inlays in Finland during the Late Iron Age (ca. 700–1200 AD) by M Moilanen (2016) that seriously ponders the significance of such inlays (and the author and his university have generously provided a pdf of the entire book!) Some of these marks may well have had talismanic significance to the maker or user while others may have been a maker's mark or 'signature' or they may have been applied as an otherwise anonymous testament to the technical proficiency of the smith. Also, it is noted that peoples everywhere from the beginning have liked to decorate their tools and other possessions.

I am going to resurrect an old thread of Lew's to show another similarly very subtly curved 'straight' kris that features iron inlays.

Kai, I have noted your interest in a top view of the gangya and added it to the photo queue. Meanwhile, here are the requested close-ups of the base of this blade:

Rick · 18th June 2017, 05:50 PM

If this represents batu lapak then according to Tammens book DE KRIS it is a royal pamor.

Tammens notes that kul buntet is essentially the same, but it's character may be stronger.

I'm not sure how relevant Tammens work is anymore.

I, personally, have seen no evidence that pamor interpretations were carried over to the Moro peoples.

It might make a bit more sense if it was a Malay kris.

Ian · 18th June 2017, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

If this represents batu lapak then according to Tammens book DE KRIS it is a royal pamor.

Tammens notes that kul buntet is essentially different, but it's character may be stronger.

I have seen no evidence before this to suggest that pamor interpretations were carried over to the Moro peoples.

It might make a bit more sense if it was a Malay kris.

Hi Rick,

Do you think this is a Malay kris? Can you amplify?

The hilt looks typical Maranao work, especially with the crenalated metal ring just below the pommel, while the "elephant trunk area" does not look like Malay examples I have seen previously.

The link to a royal pamor is an intriguing observation given the high level of craftsmanship for the forging that went into this blade.

Ian.

Battara · 18th June 2017, 07:21 PM

Ian I was thinking that this could be Maranao or perhaps (more likely IMHO) Maguindanao based on the front of the ganga and on the pommel.

Also can the hilt looks like it could be later (though not as certain as the tribal affiliation).

Rick · 18th June 2017, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Rick,

Do you think this is a Malay kris? Can you amplify?

The hilt looks typical Maranao work, especially with the crenalated metal ring just below the pommel, while the "elephant trunk area" does not look like Malay examples I have seen previously.

The link to a royal pamor is an intriguing observation given the high level of craftsmanship for the forging that went into this blade.

Ian.

Hi Ian,
No I can't amplify; just thinking out loud.
Thinking out loud again, maybe if it were a Malay sword there might be a closer tie to Javanese keris traditions.

Yeah, I know it doesn't look particularly Malay.
I have always wondered if this 'Maranao' pommel form comes from trying to salvage what is left of a broken Kakatua.
Heresy, I know...

Battara · 19th June 2017, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I have always wondered if this 'Maranao' pommel form comes from trying to salvage what is left of a broken Kakatua.
Heresy, I know...

Actually this is a typical form of Maguindanao pommel form.

Rick · 19th June 2017, 12:04 AM

Whichever Moro group Jose; I still wonder about the origin of the design.

Battara · 19th June 2017, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I have always wondered if this 'Maranao' pommel form comes from trying to salvage what is left of a broken Kakatua.
Heresy, I know...

Actually this is a typical form of Maguindanao pommel form.

Here are some examples of what I am talking about:

Ian · 19th June 2017, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Actually this is a typical form of Maguindanao pommel form.

Here are some examples of what I am talking about:

I agree Jose. This is a commonly observed type of pommel that I associate with Maguindanao/Maranao kris from the late 19th C and more recently. I have also seen it imitated on a couple of Lumad kris (an example here)

Ian

Sajen · 19th June 2017, 07:26 PM

A little bit late but this is a very nice kris blade! And like Jose I think that it is a Maguindanao kris but frankly said I have my problems to distinguish between Maguindanao and Maranao byself!

I only know that it is a Maguindanao kris from this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=kris since this kris from my collection has a very similar pommel and in the provided thread is also a discussion about this pommel form.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 18th June 2017, 05:50 PM

Lee,

Thanks for the cross-cultural reference and historical perspective on pattern welded and laminated blades. Interesting comparisons indeed.

Ian.

18th June 2017, 05:14 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Rick, considering their geographic and cultural proximity, I would surmise that the associated meanings of such markings from the realm of the keris world must have carried on at least to some extent in the mindsets and work of Moro smiths. Perhaps entirely unassociated except by the nature of the medium of forged iron, iron blade inlays are also frequently observed in European Migration Period and Viking Age swords (even the sword in the logo at top of this page has one!) and such inlays do include swirls. I have just finished reading a most engaging doctoral thesis on iron inlays in late Iron Age Finland - Marks of Fire, Value and Faith Swords with Ferrous Inlays in Finland during the Late Iron Age (ca. 700–1200 AD) by M Moilanen (2016) that seriously ponders the significance of such inlays (and the author and his university have generously provided a pdf of the entire book!) Some of these marks may well have had talismanic significance to the maker or user while others may have been a maker's mark or 'signature' or they may have been applied as an otherwise anonymous testament to the technical proficiency of the smith. Also, it is noted that peoples everywhere from the beginning have liked to decorate their tools and other possessions. I am going to resurrect an old thread of Lew's to show another similarly very subtly curved 'straight' kris that features iron inlays. Kai, I have noted your interest in a top view of the gangya and added it to the photo queue. Meanwhile, here are the requested close-ups of the base of this blade: Attached Images

18th June 2017, 05:50 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Kul Buntet If this represents batu lapak then according to Tammens book DE KRIS it is a royal pamor. Tammens notes that kul buntet is essentially the same, but it's character may be stronger. I'm not sure how relevant Tammens work is anymore. I, personally, have seen no evidence that pamor interpretations were carried over to the Moro peoples. It might make a bit more sense if it was a Malay kris.

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18th June 2017, 07:21 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Ian I was thinking that this could be Maranao or perhaps (more likely IMHO) Maguindanao based on the front of the ganga and on the pommel. Also can the hilt looks like it could be later (though not as certain as the tribal affiliation).

19th June 2017, 12:04 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Whichever Moro group Jose; I still wonder about the origin of the design.

19th June 2017, 07:26 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,208	A little bit late but this is a very nice kris blade! And like Jose I think that it is a Maguindanao kris but frankly said I have my problems to distinguish between Maguindanao and Maranao byself! I only know that it is a Maguindanao kris from this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=kris since this kris from my collection has a very similar pommel and in the provided thread is also a discussion about this pommel form. Regards, Detlef

18th June 2017, 05:50 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Lee, Thanks for the cross-cultural reference and historical perspective on pattern welded and laminated blades. Interesting comparisons indeed. Ian.