Use of swords in American Indian tribes

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Sioux chief Yellow Hair. C1900? ( Looks like it might be a Blucher 1811 )
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Blackfoot warrior.

[Norman McCormick]

Dog Child with Katana?, Blackfoot tribe, who served in the Northwest Mounted Police.

[Norman McCormick]

Brave Sword, Blackfoot tribe C1885. This one and the one in post 7 could be the same sword, photographers prop?

[machinist]

There is the "sword of the turtle people" from British Columbia.
A kastane that apparently was brought over by the Spanish.

http://infotel.ca/newsitem/similkame...ral-bc/it29759http://infotel.ca/newsitem/similkame...ral-bc/it29759

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by machinist

There is the "sword of the turtle people" from British Columbia.
A kastane that apparently was brought over by the Spanish.

http://infotel.ca/newsitem/similkame...ral-bc/it29759http://infotel.ca/newsitem/similkame...ral-bc/it29759

Interesting story .

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by machinist

There is the "sword of the turtle people" from British Columbia.
A kastane that apparently was brought over by the Spanish.

http://infotel.ca/newsitem/similkame...ral-bc/it29759http://infotel.ca/newsitem/similkame...ral-bc/it29759

Well the world really is a small place. I haven't seen this article before but I have seen this kastane before. In around 2006 I ran into a gentleman who said he found this sword with a metal detector on a historic ranch about 7 miles from where I live. I told him that it was a kastane, he didn't believe me . He seemed sincere. So out of curiosity over the years I have dug into it a little. The Spanish connection in the article is possible but I always thought it got here by trade. This area was first explored by Europeans in the early 1800's by the Pacific Fur Company. Other companies operated in this area as well. I suspected this sword was a trade item brought here by one of the companies from the surplus stock of a European manufacturer. This seems to be bore out as I came across this inventory from the Rocky Mountain Outfit that operated east of here.
https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtm...l/rmo1836.html
The "12 dragon Swords" listed would have been a perfect description of the original Kastane. I always meant to tell him this but I never ran into him again.

Jeff

[ariel]

I second your doubts.
Spaniards were never in "control" of Ceylon ( Sri Lanka). Portuguese, then Dutch, then. ( post 1802) British.

AFAIK, the D -guard of kastane was introduced by the Dutch, but those did not venture into British Columbia.

The easiest explanation would involve a Brit , military or otherwise

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Well the world really is a small place. I haven't seen this article before but I have seen this kastane before. In around 2006 I ran into a gentleman who said he found this sword with a metal detector on a historic ranch about 7 miles from where I live. I told him that it was a kastane, he didn't believe me . He seemed sincere. So out of curiosity over the years I have dug into it a little. The Spanish connection in the article is possible but I always thought it got here by trade. This area was first explored by Europeans in the early 1800's by the Pacific Fur Company. Other companies operated in this area as well. I suspected this sword was a trade item brought here by one of the companies from the surplus stock of a European manufacturer. This seems to be bore out as I came across this inventory from the Rocky Mountain Outfit that operated east of here.
https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtm...l/rmo1836.html
The "12 dragon Swords" listed would have been a perfect description of the original Kastane. I always meant to tell him this but I never ran into him again.

Jeff

Jeff, its fantastic to have you here on this, we don't hear from you nearly often enough here! It truly is a small world, and this information on what is clearly a kastane is phenomenal. Especially remarkable is that excellent bit of research with the 1836 records describing 'dragon swords'. I think that pretty compellingly describes the kastane!

As far as these arriving in British Columbia via Spanish means, I would doubt that being the case and am inclined to think these might have arrived via possibly British trade, which likely acquired them in some means via Dutch conduit.
There are any number of possibilities for that conundrum, however what is clearly apparent is this item, said to be of the 'Turtle People' (probably a clan name of tribe not specified), is indeed a kastane.
It does appear of the character of these swords, with likely a Dutch hanger blade of 18th century, as many of these were assembled with for the Dutch East Indies trade. What is puzzling is how it came to be in British Columbia and not singly, but in a grouping of a dozen.

As noted, the Spanish had little to do with Ceylon, however one of the earliest examples we have found of the kastane hilt in its well known zoomorphic motif is the one found in Sendai, Japan's holdings.
This was from the Keicho Embassy sent by Masemune 1613-1620 to a number of countries, which included a visit to King Philip III in Spain in 1615.
Tsunemaga of this embassy was apparently presented with several items including the kastane (which he had from source unclear).
The reason for this appears to have been it was unlawful to present Spanish weapons to foreign visitors so this was given in lieu.

That would appear to be the entirety of Spanish connection to the kastane swords.

The stories of Spanish 'conquistadors' seems to have been embellished throughout North American folklore into virtually every corner of the continent. However, they do make for absolutely fascinating research and investigation.

All very best regards, and again thank you for this outstanding entry!

Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Well the world really is a small place. I haven't seen this article before but I have seen this kastane before. In around 2006 I ran into a gentleman who said he found this sword with a metal detector on a historic ranch about 7 miles from where I live. I told him that it was a kastane, he didn't believe me . He seemed sincere. So out of curiosity over the years I have dug into it a little. The Spanish connection in the article is possible but I always thought it got here by trade. This area was first explored by Europeans in the early 1800's by the Pacific Fur Company. Other companies operated in this area as well. I suspected this sword was a trade item brought here by one of the companies from the surplus stock of a European manufacturer. This seems to be bore out as I came across this inventory from the Rocky Mountain Outfit that operated east of here.
https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtm...l/rmo1836.html
The "12 dragon Swords" listed would have been a perfect description of the original Kastane. I always meant to tell him this but I never ran into him again.

Jeff

This one really has me intrigued, and I entirely agree this kastane ended up in British Columbia through trade in one way or another. What always baffles me is the often unusual or tenuous assumptions presented in news items supposedly from interviews with persons of standing in museums and such organizations.
The notion of Spanish presence in these regions has some degree of validity. There were a number of Spanish voyages to secure Spanish interests in the Pacific Northwest in the last quarter of the 18th c. and they had claimed Nootka in attempt to control these from Russian dominance. By the 1780s apparently local tribes offered both Russian and Spanish materials in their trade. The Spanish also had a fort at Vancouver for a time.

The news item claims that there was a Spanish sword of 16th century located in these areas, but unclear about this 'kastane' which they assume is Spanish. The note on the Dutch influence on the Ceylonese swords is well placed and probably correct in degree regarding the knuckleguard, and these were most often fashioned with Dutch or German hanger blades (as on this one). There were many of these with VOC blades, and brought back to the Netherlands by their ships.
So why would Spaniards have these Ceylonese swords? Possibly due to the Netherlands being under Spanish control in the 18th century.
There was considerable traffic between England and the Netherlands in these times as well.

To consider that some of these kastane, as an exotic novelty, entering British trade stores from Dutch sources, which may have travelled to America, the Dutch areas of New York seems plausible. These may have entered American Indian tribal context, which could account for the curious note that this sword was of the 'turtle people' (perhaps the Eastern Woodland tribes whose mythology and clan names were deeply rooted with turtle totemism).

This may have accounted for a transcontinental intertribal trade system/ route for this sword or swords of kastane form moving westward into these regions.

On the other hand, a Spanish arrival through trade contact in the East Indies via Asian sources might have brought these to Spanish ports in North America via Philippine routes.

What is also curious is that this kastane, while intact other than the grip alteration, would seem to be unusual, and such 'custom' alterations of what appears to be staghorn grip not too likely for as many as 12 swords of such exotic nature.

It seems the Spanish presence, though relatively limited and brief in these Northwest regions, is somewhat well established in the coastal regions. However there is really no support for more profound colonial activity inland, and the case for the armed Spanish force remains unproven. This sword (kastane) really is not instrumental for these situations as far as proof.
But it surely is interesting, and strongly suggests probable American Indian context, though circumstances unclear.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Blackfoot warrior.

Hi Norman,
This sword looks very similar to a sword in the Glenbow museum in Calgary. It might be the same one. This is a Solingen bladed British cavalry sword with a 1821 light cavalry officer's hilt. I will include the museum description.

Jeff

[Rick]

Although to my knowledge there has never been a picture of this sword in the hands of a Sioux or other tribal chief; the Fetterman Massacre Sword was doubtless carried by its captor.

The Fetterman Massacre may well put the debacle at Little Bighorn to the blush.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Although to my knowledge there has never been a picture of this sword in the hands of a Sioux or other tribal chief; the Fetterman Massacre Sword was doubtless carried by its captor.

The Fetterman Massacre may well put the debacle at Little Bighorn to the blush.

Rick,
Thank you for this, what an incredibly historic sword, and with intriguing and mysterious stories. Apparently this was a Staff & Field officers sabre with blade by Clauberg (Solingen) presented to Lt. George Grummond by his fellow officers in Tennessee (14th Mich. Inf.) in 1863.

This was apparently used in combat at the Fetterman battle Dec. 21, 1866 and indeed taken by a warrior after Grummond fell. It is unknown who or which with tribe the sword was kept, but it was with either Lakota, Cheyenne or Arapaho. It was surrendered to U.S. years later.

It is noted in an auction description that it is alleged that an American Indian warrior named 'Hurts the Enemy' changed his name to 'sword owner' or to that effect. It is unclear how the sword lost the guard, whether damaged or removed, but likely it was used a the ceremonial or status oriented manner, symbolic of power .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Norman,
This sword looks very similar to a sword in the Glenbow museum in Calgary. It might be the same one. This is a Solingen bladed British cavalry sword with a 1821 light cavalry officer's hilt. I will include the museum description.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
I am wondering if this M1821 might have had anything to do with Canadian military use. These were among others quite heavily used among these units, though it would seem there would be markings in accord with that.
It is interesting how tribal traditions and accounts can sometimes be melded into unusual renditions, and absorbed into those of other monumental events such as the Little Big Horn.
As far as I have ever found, there were no swords at LBH, and actually Custer and his men had left their sabres at Ft. Abraham Lincoln. By this time, there was little use of the sword by U.S. cavalry in campaign during the Indian Wars.

Still, regardless of how acquired, the fact is that swords were most definitely present among American Indian tribes and although " ..seldom employed in actual warfare " (Taylor, 2001. p55) they were used symbolically.

All best regards
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I just wanted to thank everyone for so much great response on this thread!!
Sorry for the blast of entries, but I wanted to respond as much as possible directly to these most important entries and outstanding support.
This is a fascinating topic and I hope we keep the entries coming as we learn more. I have some advantage in material from research some time ago, so I am glad to share as much as I can here, along with the material you guys are bringing in.