The flowers on the tulwar hilts

[Jens Nordlunde]

It is interesting to see how the discussion develops, although I had hope for more members to participate.
We must not forget that the Hindu's and the Muslim's used the floral decoration in different ways. Most of the flowers the Hindu's used represented a diety, and so had a special meaning to them. The Muslim's on the other hand, used the floral decoration only for decoration.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is at first a complex subject but well worth getting stuck into.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]It is interesting to see how the discussion develops, although I had hope for more members to participate.
We must not forget that the Hindu's and the Muslim's used the floral decoration in different ways. Most of the flowers the Hindu's used represented a diety, and so had a special meaning to them. The Muslim's on the other hand, used the floral decoration only for decoration.[/QUOTE


Salaams Jens Nordlunde for what is a short but crystal clear point. It was indeed the Islamic view that calligraphy and geometry used as decoration was really the only allowable art form. This explains the gold painting over of such paintings commissioned by Daro on the orders of Aurangzeb whilst ignoring the beautiful floral decoration which as you point out was Hindu...

That the Flowers and Calligraphy were mixed together may have been at the heart of the secret which Daro and his Mystic friends were trying to hide.

Thank you.

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

..... It was indeed the Islamic view that calligraphy and geometry used as decoration was really the only allowable art form.....

With all due respect, this is a tremendously simplified and rather incorrect point of view.
Aniconism as such was officially introduced by Caliph al-Malik in ~697 CE ( that was when islamo-byzantine coins stopped carrying portraits of the Caliph ( or presumably Muhammed himself) and became image-less tokens.
However, in a little bit of time Persians, Mamluks, Moghuls and Ottomans produced enormous numbers of detailed miniatures with human images and even portraits, including Muhammed himself, and some of those images were pretty risque, not to say pornographic.

Perhaps the only society where uniconism still persisted was Aravia proper, but even there crude engraving were created.

Hadiths proscribe music as well, but it was never suppressed and flourished unabated everywhere. Even alcohol was used in some islamic societies and strains.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems whenever approaching a topic where highly complex aspects are involved, particularly religion and the Islamic Faith, it becomes necessary to highly quantify virtually every view or comment expressed. I think this is a good example, and as certainly the case, we do need to recognize these religious complexities in degree to better understand the symbolic and decorative aspects used in these hilts.

While the observation that there were certain proscriptions toward the portrayal or imagery of sentient beings in many cases in the numerous schools of thought and other divisions in the Islamic Faith is correct, the variations are indeed innumerable.

With the Mughals, as a whole these dynasties belonged to both Sunni and Shi'a followings, and the Sufi followings were present a varying degree.
While Ottomans were largely Sunni, the Janissaries were Bektashi Shi'a and again other variations were likely followed as with various nations in that empire and their Faiths.
The Persians of course were Shi'a and followed different approach to decorative allowances. The Mamluks were again of various followings.

It seems that with all of these empires, dynasties and nations there were considerable instances of degrees of synchretism between these Faiths and followings, and to adamantly classify certain restrictions presumed broadly applied probably best avoided.
I fully concede I am not a theologian, but this assessment is based on what understanding I have toward these historic periods and the Faith observed in them.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think we must take into consideration , that the Hindu decoration of artifacts and weapons was used centuries before the Mughals arrived at the scene.
Before the Muslims arrived in India, they were influenced from different countries, but the Hindu's also had their own style.
Alan is right, scratching the stone doesn't help to understand, one must dig deeper.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Alan, in the article The use of Floral and Fauna Imagery on Mughal Decorative Arts, Stephan Markel writes about a water ewer from Lahore around 1700.
"While the shape follows earlier established conventions, it has been dramatically 'Mughalized' with numerous descriptions of poppy blossoms, which since the time of the pleasure-loving Jahangir (r. 1605-1627) served in effect as the state flower of the Mughals."

Is the poppy also often seen on the keris'?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I think we must take into consideration , that the Hindu decoration of artifacts and weapons was used centuries before the Mughals arrived at the scene.
Before the Muslims arrived in India, they were influenced from different countries, but the Hindu's also had their own style.
Alan is right, scratching the stone doesn't help to understand, one must dig deeper.

Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I agree entirely with your perspective however, I believe that the concept of Islamic versus Hindu art is not up for scrutiny except that it is the balance of both when viewed through the lens of Dara Shikoh and conversely by Aurangzeb who had him executed for trying to fuse the two structures as one. It is therefor nothing to do with religion per se...although you could argue that heresy being the charge Dara had no chance of survival in the situation he found himself surrounded by...May I also point to the time zone that Floral art form more fully became accepted into Hindu art which was apparently not always the case~ As I stated at #51 here Viz;

It is fascinating that Dara (had tried to) fused the two religions of Islam and Hinduism into one form. Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/

It can be seen in the reference how Moghul art developed through phases until direct attention became focussed upon Floral artworks at the very time Dara Shikoh (and by his artists) were being influenced by Mystics perhaps pointing to their secretive and hidden meanings in weaponry decor; particularly hilts. It could be stated that he was one of the main patrons of this floral art form

What seems odd is that the zenith of floral paintings seems to be at the time Dara Shiko was inspired to have artists view flowers especially vases filled with blosoms...and more weirdly influenced by European (EIC) styles which were copied in an attempt to show more realism in Moghul art.

It is worth contemplating what would have been the outcome had Dara Shikoh somehow won against Aurangzeb ...He would have inherited the Mughal crown and in the style of Machiavellian events akin to the Tudors, Aurangzeb would probably have been executed and two great styles may even have been joined.

By now, we would all know the methods and secrets of Tulvar hilt decoration.

See also http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/...spiration.html

The prime reasoning behind accepting into Moghul Art the European exactness of botanical studies in floral form was that it enabled greater accuracy in colours and in lifelike portrayals of subject matter.

Floral artwork of that period around 1620 to 1630 added below.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jens, I do not know of the poppy in Javanese decorative art.

In Malay, which means in Indonesian also, there is a word for the poppy:- "apiun". But there is no word in Javanese for the ornamental poppy.

In Malay, Indonesian and in Javanese there is a word for the opium poppy:- "madat".

In fact, I doubt that the poppy could grow in Java or Bali.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry, I should have shown the suns - here they are.
The one with the short rays is from Salumbar, and the one with the long rays is from Ulwar

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
Thank you for showing these fantastic images of the pommel disc interiors!
It seems that over the years the decorative motif on tulwar hilts has virtually always concentrated on the hilt overall, but without really looking into the designs inside the pommel disc. Your attention to this detail has been well established in that you have always included that key view in the examples in your collection, now gratefully published.

While we have been discussing the floral motif of the hilts, it seems that the inside of the pommel discs are typically a radiating theme in their circular shape. These examples show of course a solar theme, and given that they are of Rajasthan provenance, naturally this suggests Rajput examples.

The Rajput clans are incredibly complex, however rudimentarily they are of three basic lineages.
1. Suryavanshi: The solar, from Surya, Hindu god of the sun.
2.Chandravanshi: The lunar, from Chandra, god of the moon
3.Agnivanshi: The fire, from Agni, god of fire.

Salumbar is in the Udaipur District of Rajasthan, and primarily of the
Chundawat clan.

Ulwar was a princely state with primarily Naruka Rajputs.

While not being entirely clear on which of the three lineages these clans may be ascribed to, by the concept of the solar type motif in the discs, that of the first lineage would be implied.

So the questions would be;
Would the solar theme of suns rays be indicative of these Rajput clans?

How would the radiating rays of the solar theme be differentiated from the radiating design of flames (fire lineage)?

Are there lunar themed discs? Would these have crescents or varying moon phases?

Leaving the Rajput orientation, how would pommel discs of other regions, other groups, be decorated, and what symbolism might we find in those cases?

In the case of solar representation for example, as here, there are more numerous smaller shorter 'rays' and others longer and less in number.
Would this signify different clans of the same lineage, or might this simply be aesthetic representation of same symbolism in accord with regional or clan preference?

A lot of questions, but as the pommel discs seem to not necessarily follow the same theme as the floral motif (or perhaps some do) it would seem that we need to look into the wider scope of these pommel disc decorations.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,
You ask a lot of interesting questions, whish I cant answer, but most of the answers would be - maybe, could be, possible, I don know - I will however try to answer some of the questions.
Here you can see the Sun born, Moon born and the Fire born clans.

http://www.jairajputana.com/list-of-...and-vansh.html

There is something of which you should be aware, and that is that some of the clans mentioned are sub clans of other clans mantioned. Like the Chundawat clan is a sub clan of the Sisodia clan of Mewar - see catalogue pp. 204-205.

You ask what the top of the disc from a fire born clan would look like, I am not sure, but I have seen a sun where the rays looked like flames, so I suppose that is what they could/would look like.

To research this subject would be a lot of work, and quite complicated as a close knowledge of the clans involved, and of their history, would be needed. To this comes the sub clans, sub sub clans and so on.

What about the disc tops with a flower with a different number of petals, or the disc tops with nothing at all?

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly Jens, and the reason I posed this barrage of questions is to set out the kinds of questions that we ,meaning not only us, but any serious student of arms and collector of Indian weaponry, should be asking.

In my post, and aware of the complexity of the Rajput clan system, I noted the three primary lineages, avoiding trying to catalog the many sub clans at this point. Here in trying to explain the nature of the Rajput clans, the goal was to illustrate that these symbols of the primary lineages may account for at least some of the themes in the pommel discs.

Here is where the complications begin, and only the steadfast researcher will achieve gainful advances as they probe further into these matters. It is far from an easy task, as you and I know, as we are aware of how tenacious such study must be, and the frustration and disappointments which thwart it seems too many hopeful leads.
We can only hope that a new breed of researchers are among the new collectors and students of Indian history, and armed with the ever advancing technology, can carry the efforts of the 'old guard', to the new vistas we have ever hoped to achieve.

Even resolving a few of the Rajput symbolism conundrums will hopefully give us better perspective on perhaps resolving the questions toward those motifs in other contexts outside the Rajput spectrum. For example, as you note, the floral character in some where the number of petals shown (like the number of rays in solar or flames in fire) carry some esoteric meaning.

When is a solar ray actually a flame? aren't the 'rays' of sun actually flames from the cosmic ball of fire we know as the sun?
Examining these seemingly aesthetic decorations and motifs in these perspectives becomes a philosophical and many manners of extremely subjective thought, far too complex for most students or collectors.

However to really appreciate a weapon, to understand its true history, we need to try to understand those who had them, who decorated them, and what these things meant to them. The swords and weapons were in many ways the icons of the very being of those who owned them.

That is what the study of arms is all about, and that of the Indian arms is not only some of the most colorful and fascinating, but profoundly challenging that any serious student of arms may encounter.
You have studied and worked tenaciously at this for many decades of your life, and given us all the sound footing and key benchmarks needed to continue the quest . .......for us, and others who will join.....onward!!!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,
I think, maybe I even believe, that the decoration at the top of the disc ought to give more meaning than the decoration at the hilt itself, as this decoration is more likely to follow the fashion than the decoration at the top.
All over the world the early people has their tribe markings on their weapons, like the American Indians, so why would the Indians of India not follow the same thread?
When it comes to research these things, it would be a very good thing not to forget the architecture and the jewellery, as a lot of things starts here, and is then transfirmed to the weapons
One like Markel constantly returns to the poppy used for decoration, so the four pateled flower used on the disc, could it be a poppy?

[Jim McDougall]

Very good points Jens.
In books and research I have found that even prehistoric man marked and embellished his weapons, as these were not only sacred and valuable, but vital to his very life. These marks were of course most often imbuements of power and strength, much as with the animist totems the people, later tribes, would adopt.

Man was tribal long before civilization, but as this developed, along with religions and other civil organizations formed, these totemic symbols and values became inherent in more permanent things such as architecture.

We know that most Indian weapons have been structured in varied degree after architectural elements, with those of temples and religious structures such as virigals and stupas being the literal foundation for such designs .
As Robert Elgood well showed in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", the weapons were often considered to be in essence de facto temples which would actually be visited or even inhabited by the gods and goddesses in the pantheons.

Jewellery was in effect much the same, with key religious symbolism which would provide individuals with talismanic and amuletic protection as well as invocational features to the Faith of the wearer.

These facts emphasize that the decorative features and motif displayed in the iconography and designs in both religious architecture and jewellery may hold valuable clues toward understanding the decoration in these arms.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

Well there you have it !! yet another avenue for researching these weapons. Too many collectors think that in order to study Indian arms (or any ethnographic forms for that matter) the answers will be in neatly categorized chapters with each type pictured and classified and that the decoration is from such and such place etc.
It is in a broad study of material culture, art and crafts, religion, traditions, coins, textiles etc. that the real answers are found.