Blunderbuss with Cork Mail markings

ChrisPer · 6th September 2016, 06:59 AM

That blunderbuss is well synthesised, unlike the ugly tourist gun. One further weakness is the inletting at lock and tang, which look somewhat worse than any original I have looked at (I am not an expert though). It makes me want to understand who made it and from what. The creation of charming copies for Victorian decorators is well known, and there are known past collectors who have had top-quality copies of rare guns built, ofttimes with no intent to deceive.

This one has to me the feel of a 1950s-60s faker, when top quality craftsmen were less likely to do this stuff and the 'distressed' look was a big part of making new craft furniture 'antique'.

The 'no makers mark on lock' and 'barrel stamp not square' is not at all definitive. We tend to see better-quality retailed pieces or known-quality military standards, but a body like the Cork Mail probably armed their guards from lower-quality trade suppliers, perhaps by tender. The makers would not necessarily pay a quality engraver to mark trade-sourced second tier locks. The Cork Mail stamp is done with old-looking individual letter stamps and reasonably well aligned though not perfect. Letter stamps are more what you would expect in smaller more remote or colonial organisations and consistent with the lower trade quality of the components.

The fly or die is also letter stamps but perhaps newer font, and is the worst feature on this gun I think. The inletting feels like the gun has been made up from two genuinely old but partial guns, and the cock clamp screw and other un-butchered screws are probably new-made.

Overall, I would give it house room if it were not priced too high or for a Cork historic exhibit. Its almost OK, but a fastidious collector or museum might decline to lower the tone of the collection with it.

Just my less-experienced opinion.

corrado26 · 6th September 2016, 11:31 AM

This pistol is a typical Indian made replika of the 1980s. I've added fotos of the same pistol and a foto of another type. Both pistols have exactly the same lock, a fact that is rarely found at original items.
corrado26

ChrisPer · 7th September 2016, 05:05 AM

Can I suggest that obvious decorator or tourist guns do not enhance this excellent forum? Perhaps a thread to help newcomers understand and distinguish decorators, or comparing real antecedents to decorator designs would be worthwhile.

Kmaddock · 7th September 2016, 08:19 AM

I agree in principle
I do think though the blunderbuss is not a tourist item and discussing does enhance the forum by showing what good copies are being made
Without this forum I would have bid north of 700 euro for this gun
A rogues gallery of fakes is a good idea
Regards
Ken

ChrisPer · 8th September 2016, 10:08 AM

Yes the blunderbuss is real, just not a museum-quality example. Its the others that bother me. In another forum I saw someone post a pic of a 'matchlock pistol' to support the idea that they were used in Europe, but it clearly was a cast-zinc decorator and the very weird stock designed I think so an ordinary piece of 75x42 timber could be used.

Kmaddock · 8th September 2016, 12:23 PM

Hi Chris
The blunderbuss is not real, it not a tourist item though, it is something made to deceive ( my opinion)
But I reckon without the mail stamps and a few other things I am not going to get into on an open forum, this blunderbuss could be made to completely fly under the radar and be purchased for not inconsiderable money as the genuine article.
I have purchased fake items and if is a learning experience
My lesson was not that expensive but we'll learned all the same.
Maybe a thread entitled " my mistake purchases" would be handy as a reference of what is out there.
I am not a regular enough contributer to this forum to start such a thread though as it is not really what the forum is for.
Regards
Ken

Pukka Bundook · 8th September 2016, 03:14 PM

Ken
I appreciate your thoughts on this, and there are all sorts of ways to lose hard earned cash!

Another area to be taken that is not new but shows up quite often, is the case of flint pocket pistols by Nock or Twigg;
These show up not infrequently at auction, nice little pistols, but with Birmingham proofs of the post 1813 type!
Both Twigg and old Henry Nock were dead by then, and should warn us that something is amiss. (!)
All this means is that an arm does not have to be new to deceive us. It has been going on for a Long time and if something is genuinely Old, it does not mean it is genuine as represented.
Both Birmingham and some Belgian shops have been using famous names forever it seems.
The Cork 'buss throws us a bit, as Irish arms need have no proofs at this date. Somewhere I have seen that stamp before & can't think where....but Think it was on another shady piece!

All best,
Richard.

6th September 2016, 11:31 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,262	This pistol is a typical Indian made replika of the 1980s. I've added fotos of the same pistol and a foto of another type. Both pistols have exactly the same lock, a fact that is rarely found at original items. corrado26 Attached Images

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6th September 2016, 06:59 AM	#1
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	That blunderbuss is well synthesised, unlike the ugly tourist gun. One further weakness is the inletting at lock and tang, which look somewhat worse than any original I have looked at (I am not an expert though). It makes me want to understand who made it and from what. The creation of charming copies for Victorian decorators is well known, and there are known past collectors who have had top-quality copies of rare guns built, ofttimes with no intent to deceive. This one has to me the feel of a 1950s-60s faker, when top quality craftsmen were less likely to do this stuff and the 'distressed' look was a big part of making new craft furniture 'antique'. The 'no makers mark on lock' and 'barrel stamp not square' is not at all definitive. We tend to see better-quality retailed pieces or known-quality military standards, but a body like the Cork Mail probably armed their guards from lower-quality trade suppliers, perhaps by tender. The makers would not necessarily pay a quality engraver to mark trade-sourced second tier locks. The Cork Mail stamp is done with old-looking individual letter stamps and reasonably well aligned though not perfect. Letter stamps are more what you would expect in smaller more remote or colonial organisations and consistent with the lower trade quality of the components. The fly or die is also letter stamps but perhaps newer font, and is the worst feature on this gun I think. The inletting feels like the gun has been made up from two genuinely old but partial guns, and the cock clamp screw and other un-butchered screws are probably new-made. Overall, I would give it house room if it were not priced too high or for a Cork historic exhibit. Its almost OK, but a fastidious collector or museum might decline to lower the tone of the collection with it. Just my less-experienced opinion.

7th September 2016, 05:05 AM	#3
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Can I suggest that obvious decorator or tourist guns do not enhance this excellent forum? Perhaps a thread to help newcomers understand and distinguish decorators, or comparing real antecedents to decorator designs would be worthwhile.

7th September 2016, 08:19 AM	#4
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 546	I agree in principle I do think though the blunderbuss is not a tourist item and discussing does enhance the forum by showing what good copies are being made Without this forum I would have bid north of 700 euro for this gun A rogues gallery of fakes is a good idea Regards Ken

8th September 2016, 10:08 AM	#5
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Yes the blunderbuss is real, just not a museum-quality example. Its the others that bother me. In another forum I saw someone post a pic of a 'matchlock pistol' to support the idea that they were used in Europe, but it clearly was a cast-zinc decorator and the very weird stock designed I think so an ordinary piece of 75x42 timber could be used.

8th September 2016, 12:23 PM	#6
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 546	Hi Chris The blunderbuss is not real, it not a tourist item though, it is something made to deceive ( my opinion) But I reckon without the mail stamps and a few other things I am not going to get into on an open forum, this blunderbuss could be made to completely fly under the radar and be purchased for not inconsiderable money as the genuine article. I have purchased fake items and if is a learning experience My lesson was not that expensive but we'll learned all the same. Maybe a thread entitled " my mistake purchases" would be handy as a reference of what is out there. I am not a regular enough contributer to this forum to start such a thread though as it is not really what the forum is for. Regards Ken

8th September 2016, 03:14 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ken I appreciate your thoughts on this, and there are all sorts of ways to lose hard earned cash! Another area to be taken that is not new but shows up quite often, is the case of flint pocket pistols by Nock or Twigg; These show up not infrequently at auction, nice little pistols, but with Birmingham proofs of the post 1813 type! Both Twigg and old Henry Nock were dead by then, and should warn us that something is amiss. (!) All this means is that an arm does not have to be new to deceive us. It has been going on for a Long time and if something is genuinely Old, it does not mean it is genuine as represented. Both Birmingham and some Belgian shops have been using famous names forever it seems. The Cork 'buss throws us a bit, as Irish arms need have no proofs at this date. Somewhere I have seen that stamp before & can't think where....but Think it was on another shady piece! All best, Richard.