Ram's head khanjar for comment

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is one from the Art Institute of Chicago, I have some doubts about this one as well, 17th to 18th century????

You have doubts and rightfully so. This one is 19th century at best, but then again, I suspect new Koftgari. So if the Art Institute if Chicago can be so obviously wrong, then...

Possibly the golden one to be completely new, blade scabbard and all Koftgary for sure but the hilt not so sure. It can simply be an old hilt cleaned and decorated anew. Since the whole surface of the hilt is covered in Koftgari, it would be almost impossible to say whether is old or new.

As with regards, to the auction house knowing very well what they were selling... based on my experience with quite reputed auction houses, I have serious doubts about that as well.

I have seen myself magnificent antique pieces selling dirt cheap (even acquired a couple of such pieces) and obvious modern replicas selling for extortionately high prices. And I'm talking about reputed and specialised auction houses not about obscure/unknown back-yard ones.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Possibly the golden one to be completely new, blade scabbard and all Koftgary for sure but the hilt not so sure. It can simply be an old hilt cleaned and decorated anew. Since the whole surface of the hilt is covered in Koftgari, it would be almost impossible to say whether is old or new.

That is why a data base of images is very valuable. Now when you say "As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century" the currently available images do not back this up, yes there are Indian rams head daggers but I know of only a few that are carved iron, this is why when one shows up it gets questioned. Take a look at the photo below, both daggers newly made without a doubt in my opinion.

If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

That is why a data base of images is very valuable. Now when you say "As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century" the currently available images do not back this up, yes there are Indian rams head daggers but I know of only a few that are carved iron, this is why when one shows up it gets questioned. Take a look at the photo below, both daggers newly made without a doubt in my opinion.

If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it.

So what do we have here?!
Two almost identical new pattern welded blades.
Two almost identical new scabbards.
Two almost identical new koftgari works.
Two almost identical ram hilts... that are almost certainly new. So, in this case I believe there is very little doubt.

Excellent point!

Yet, this doesn't impair my initial oppinion that the dagger of the original posting is a 19th century piece, both hilt and blade.

[David]

Originally Posted by estcrh

That is why a data base of images is very valuable. Now when you say "As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century" the currently available images do not back this up, yes there are Indian rams head daggers but I know of only a few that are carved iron, this is why when one shows up it gets questioned. Take a look at the photo below, both daggers newly made without a doubt in my opinion.

If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it.

Is not the dagger that you have accepted as old in your post #21 a "carved iron hilt"? Does the existence of this dagger therefore not make a case that such hilts existed in antiquity?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by David

Is not the dagger that you have accepted as old in your post #21 a "carved iron hilt"? Does the existence of this dagger therefore not make a case that such hilts existed in antiquity?

David, while we have evidence of rams head hilts, there are not many known examples of carved iron rams head hilts. If they were actually popular ("As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century") were are they?

The one in question seems to have no wear to the edges and in fact has red rust which is sometimes a sign if a newly made iron item. As for the pitting, this can be made through various methods but how do you explain the lack of wear as seen in the hilt of #21?

It may be old and then again it may be new, you have to be a bit skeptical in cases like this.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

As with regards, to the auction house knowing very well what they were selling... based on my experience with quite reputed auction houses, I have serious doubts about that as well.

I have seen myself magnificent antique pieces selling dirt cheap (even acquired a couple of such pieces) and obvious modern replicas selling for extortionately high prices. And I'm talking about reputed and specialised auction houses not about obscure/unknown back-yard ones.

Same experience!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I refer readers to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=7058 and at the forth post down the list...Jim McDougall outlines an interesting set of notes.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is an example of how the Rams head transitioned or was copied as a sword hilt..

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is an example of how the Rams head transitioned or was copied as a sword hilt..

From the collection of Arms and Armour in the Prince of Wales Museum, now known as Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sanghrahalaya, Mumbai India.