Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 04:19 PM

First we need to recall the definition of the word «shashka». E.G. Astvatsaturian offers this description: «A shashka is a kind of sabre…» it has a shorter blade and there is no guard. «A grip is the most original part of a shashka and makes it different from a sabre. A solid grip covers a tang; if the grip consists of two halves, these halves cover the tang from two sides and get sealed by rivets. A grip usually has an oval cross-section… A pommel is large, slightly elongated and rounded up. There is a wedge-shaped cutout on top of the pommel - forked head. The base of the grip is extended to the width of the blade… The grip has no cross guard for protection… The grip is crafted so as to be almost entirely enclosed by a scabbard» Stone believes that a shashka – «It is the national sword of the Circassians…», and further quotes Rockstuhl: «The shashka ordinarily has a straight blade, or one very slightly curved towards the point, and the hilts without any guard whatsoever… When the arms is sheathed the hilt enters the wooden scabbard covered with leather, if desired, as far as the pommel. The latter is divided into two straight wings like a Trapizond yatagan. ...to many of the swords have fine old blades from Persia...» K. Rivkin gives the following description of a shashka: «A shashka is a light, relatively short (60-90 cm) slashing weapon of a very simple structure. … There’s no guard on a shashka, … A grip is made of a horn, expensive grips are made of walrus tusks … there are splitting forked head on the end… A shashka was usually worn on a shoulder or waist baldrick with an edge up. Such way of wearing a weapon was known a long time before shashkas appeared… in the Ottoman Empire. … A grip of the Caucasian shashka is almost fully enclosed by a scabbard».

All these authors say about the Caucasian shashka, as other shashkas they were not familiar ((K. Rivkin wrote in the book is about the Caucasian weapon).

Under the above-mentioned definition of checkers match:

1) Caucasian shashka
2) Afghan shashka
3) Bukhara shashka (and I think more correct to say - Central Asian shashka)
4) Russian shashka (Cossack)

Sorry for my bad English ...

Ian · 8th August 2016, 04:23 PM

Mahratt, that is an excellent start to defining a shashka! Thank you for the prompt reply.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Mahratt, that is an excellent start to defining a shashka! Thank you for the prompt reply.

Thank you for the nice words

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2016, 04:29 PM

Allow me to second that Mahratt!! Nicely on point.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 04:52 PM

I think no one doubts that the "Bukhara" shashka developed independently, regardless of the Caucasus.

Russian (Cossack) shashka is derived from the Caucasian shashkas (or vice versa). There are serious studies (they have not yet completed) and we do not know who came before. But it is not important. It is important that they have their own identity (in the decor, for example)

Afghan shashka is not a copy of the Russian shashkas. If someone borrows something - then items will be very similar. For example, the installation of the handle of the Caucasian and Russian shashkas - the same. Afghan shashka - individual. So we can not say that it copies a Russian shashka.

ariel · 8th August 2016, 05:16 PM

Gentlemen,
Enjoy shashkas from the Indonesian archipelago:

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Gentlemen,
Enjoy shashkas from the Indonesian archipelago:

If those are Shashkas, then my Japanese Katana is also a shashka!

ariel · 8th August 2016, 05:29 PM

That is what happens when a definition is taken out of context: the cardinal word missing in the above comment is "Caucasian". All the rest of guardless sabers from all over the world are not Shashkas by definition.

Just like there is only one true Katana: the Japanese one. We all know Indonesian and Filippine WW2 imitations, but would not dare call them true katanas: pseudo-katanas at the most.

Rivkin, Astvatsaturyan and Stone were very well familiar with other guardless sabers. They just thought about the topic bit more carefully:-)

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Afghan shashka is not a copy of the Russian shashkas. If someone borrows something - then items will be very similar. For example, the installation of the handle of the Caucasian and Russian shashkas - the same. Afghan shashka - individual. So we can not say that it copies a Russian shashka.

OK, it is not a copy of the Caucasian Shashka, but wasn't inspired by it?!

Or did it appear absolutely independent from the Caucasian Shashka?!

How do Afghan people call it?!

kronckew · 8th August 2016, 05:42 PM

ariel, your submissions do NOT have the "wedge-shaped cutout on top of the pommel - forked head"*. turkish ones propbably count as turkey once ruled over parts of the caucasian areas.

*-as in my pommel:

AJ1356 · 20th August 2016, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

OK, it is not a copy of the Caucasian Shashka, but wasn't inspired by it?!

Or did it appear absolutely independent from the Caucasian Shashka?!

How do Afghan people call it?!

I just started reading this post and have not read completely through yet. But, to answer your question, the current people of Afghanistan would refer to it as shamshir (shamshir meaning sword) now I am not sure about people in the north. However, in the home I was raised in there was a shashka and my grandmother, whose parents were from Samarqand would call it a shashqa. I remember it had an all steel hilt with no gaurd and was said to have been brought down from Samarqand when they migrated to Afghanistan.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 05:29 PM

Visual comparison:

ariel · 8th August 2016, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

First we need to recall the definition of the word «shashka». E.G. Astvatsaturian offers this description: «A shashka is a kind of sabre…» it has a shorter blade and there is no guard. «A grip is the most original part of a shashka and makes it different from a sabre. A solid grip covers a tang; if the grip consists of two halves, these halves cover the tang from two sides and get sealed by rivets. A grip usually has an oval cross-section… A pommel is large, slightly elongated and rounded up. There is a wedge-shaped cutout on top of the pommel - forked head. The base of the grip is extended to the width of the blade… The grip has no cross guard for protection… The grip is crafted so as to be almost entirely enclosed by a scabbard» .

Well, here is a "Turkish shashka", down to a forked pommel and up-curving blade.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, here is a "Turkish shashka", down to a forked pommel and up-curving blade.

Perfectly. If you show online now 10 such "Turkish shashkas" - it will be possible to discuss it. And so - this is an isolated object, which is called - "chimera".

ariel · 8th August 2016, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Perfectly. If you show online now 10 such "Turkish shashkas" - it will be possible to discuss it. And so - this is an isolated object, which is called - "chimera".

Just get the catalogue of Zagreb collection by Dora Boskovic: multiple examples with straight and up-curved blades.

Anything that does not agree with the thesis of shashka being an " international weapon" is now an exception and a chimera...

This discussion becomes an uncomfortable mix of hilarious and embarrassing....

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Just get the catalogue of Zagreb collection by Dora Boskovic: multiple examples with straight and up-curved blades.

Anything that does not agree with the thesis of shashka being an "international weapon" is now an exception and a chimera...

This discussion becomes an uncomfortable mix of hilarious and embarrassing....

You could not demonstrate examples? Not everyone here has a catalog of Zagreb. And they all want to see examples of which you speak. Those examples that I remember very different from what you put in the position of number 15.

8th August 2016, 05:16 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gentlemen, Enjoy shashkas from the Indonesian archipelago: Attached Images

8th August 2016, 05:42 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,268	ariel, your submissions do NOT have the "wedge-shaped cutout on top of the pommel - forked head". turkish ones propbably count as turkey once ruled over parts of the caucasian areas. -as in my pommel: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 8th August 2016 at 05:58 PM.

8th August 2016, 05:29 PM	#12
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Visual comparison: Attached Images Last edited by mahratt; 8th August 2016 at 05:43 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

8th August 2016, 04:19 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	First we need to recall the definition of the word «shashka». E.G. Astvatsaturian offers this description: «A shashka is a kind of sabre…» it has a shorter blade and there is no guard. «A grip is the most original part of a shashka and makes it different from a sabre. A solid grip covers a tang; if the grip consists of two halves, these halves cover the tang from two sides and get sealed by rivets. A grip usually has an oval cross-section… A pommel is large, slightly elongated and rounded up. There is a wedge-shaped cutout on top of the pommel - forked head. The base of the grip is extended to the width of the blade… The grip has no cross guard for protection… The grip is crafted so as to be almost entirely enclosed by a scabbard» Stone believes that a shashka – «It is the national sword of the Circassians…», and further quotes Rockstuhl: «The shashka ordinarily has a straight blade, or one very slightly curved towards the point, and the hilts without any guard whatsoever… When the arms is sheathed the hilt enters the wooden scabbard covered with leather, if desired, as far as the pommel. The latter is divided into two straight wings like a Trapizond yatagan. ...to many of the swords have fine old blades from Persia...» K. Rivkin gives the following description of a shashka: «A shashka is a light, relatively short (60-90 cm) slashing weapon of a very simple structure. … There’s no guard on a shashka, … A grip is made of a horn, expensive grips are made of walrus tusks … there are splitting forked head on the end… A shashka was usually worn on a shoulder or waist baldrick with an edge up. Such way of wearing a weapon was known a long time before shashkas appeared… in the Ottoman Empire. … A grip of the Caucasian shashka is almost fully enclosed by a scabbard». All these authors say about the Caucasian shashka, as other shashkas they were not familiar ((K. Rivkin wrote in the book is about the Caucasian weapon). Under the above-mentioned definition of checkers match: 1) Caucasian shashka 2) Afghan shashka 3) Bukhara shashka (and I think more correct to say - Central Asian shashka) 4) Russian shashka (Cossack) Sorry for my bad English ...

8th August 2016, 04:23 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,617	Mahratt, that is an excellent start to defining a shashka! Thank you for the prompt reply.

8th August 2016, 04:29 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,746	Allow me to second that Mahratt!! Nicely on point.

8th August 2016, 04:52 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I think no one doubts that the "Bukhara" shashka developed independently, regardless of the Caucasus. Russian (Cossack) shashka is derived from the Caucasian shashkas (or vice versa). There are serious studies (they have not yet completed) and we do not know who came before. But it is not important. It is important that they have their own identity (in the decor, for example) Afghan shashka is not a copy of the Russian shashkas. If someone borrows something - then items will be very similar. For example, the installation of the handle of the Caucasian and Russian shashkas - the same. Afghan shashka - individual. So we can not say that it copies a Russian shashka.