Pata sword with European blade

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

LOL!!! Kubur, when you first posted your pata, I spent some hours going through notes and trying to formulate a useful assessment on your sword (my post #6). It is unusual as I personally have not seen such a motif, in triple cartouches, on an Indian sword blade.

In your post #9, you note that 'like Jim, I see Maltese crosses', further noting you had trouble believing that 'nobody on this forum could establish origin of this blade!
It seems my observations were not of notable value, and you suggested (your post #14)that African makers certainly were not capable of making good blades.....and that you were hoping for 'other comments'.

I admit that my research on both African and Indian swords only spans several decades, and the last time I researched this particular floral motif was probably 5 or more years ago. I do remember that there were certain occasions when African and Indian influences did appear compellingly connected.

Today you disparagingly have overlooked my insufficient comments and observations from the noted posts, and have 'promoted' (?) me to 'guru?
It is funny that you claim that I am a 'victim of my knowledge' , must admit I have not heard that one before !!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?

So apparently since the earlier posts, I have gone from astute observer with irrelevant observations, to a guru blinded by my experience and knowledge ?

Please understand, this is an interesting discussion on a most interesting sword you have, and my efforts have not been to 'be a guru' or any such nonsense, but trying to help when you insisted on better suggestions than those I offered.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

[Jim McDougall]

Jens,
Thank you so much for the data on the four petal flower Ixora Coccinea which indeed does have remarkable similarity, and very well might suggest Indian application.
The interesting footnote in Elgood is I think #7, which suggests that the 'X' is often used in place of the 'sh' in pronouncing Shiva. The red flower 'vetchi' is sacred to Shiva.
Combined with Wayne's interesting note on flowers on choora, that crenellated design characteristic on these and Khyber knives is a compelling comparison to the inscribed design on this blade within the squares.

This seems strong potential for Indian origin for the blade, as you have suggested, and I would note that contrary to the many references to inferior Indian blades, it seems mostly toward the wootz having infractions. With regularly forged blades, they were of much desired quality and sought after in Arabia, thus probably often entering those trade spheres.

This seems contradictory, but it seems there are many variables, and often European blades were favored, but clearly Indian blades were equally satisfactory.

I hope these further notes might be useful in assisting Kubur with the pata in the OP. It does help to expand the discussion to note these variables.

[Jim McDougall]

Found an example of pata with African blade:
This is just one I found, but as I mentioned I have owned one much like this for any years, and I have seen numbers of them.
The blade is a North African blade known in Saharan regions as 'masri' which according to Rodd (1928) has triple channels in the center of the broadsword blade. The two outside channels each at the terminus has a small crescent moon termed 'dukari'.
These blades are exclusive to North Africa, and are typically regarded as of Hausa production and found in Saharan (takouba) and many kaskara (Sudanese) swords (Briggs, 1965).

The fact that many of these are thus found in Indian swords, usually pata, suggests that somehow, most likely the result of post Omdurman situations, a considerable number of African blades ended up in Southern India.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The blade is a North African blade known in Saharan regions as 'masri' ..

This is extremely interesting, it could mean that these European blades came from Egypt, maybe via Alexandria...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The fact that many of these are thus found in Indian swords, usually pata, suggests that somehow, most likely the result of post Omdurman situations, a considerable number of African blades ended up in Southern India.

I think that one of your first post was correct: a lot of fakes were made from the relics of the British colonial empire: Sudan & India... Then of course, Indians imported European trade blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

This is extremely interesting, it could mean that these European blades came from Egypt, maybe via Alexandria...



I think that one of your first post was correct: a lot of fakes were made from the relics of the British colonial empire: Sudan & India... Then of course, Indians imported European trade blades.

Well observed Kubur, actually the Arabic term 'masri' means loosely 'Egyptian' as found with many instances of the Mamluk swords in the outstanding reference by Yucel .
What was meant by post Omdurman refers to the British and French condominium occupying Egypt and Sudan after 1898. Certainly these Saharan and Sudanese swords which had moved into those regions could well have transmitted to India just as they arrived in England. Oakeshott in his "Records of the Medieval Sword" describes how many instances of contrived 'medieval' swords actually were mounted with blades from these cannibalized swords of Africa that had been brought back by the thousands.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

LOL!!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

First, it's good to laugh, a lot of people take it too seriously. I don't.
In fact, I don't care if it's a flower or a cross. I just wrote and drawn that the motive is different from the one that you described. Apparently you didn't notice my comments and drawings (1 point each).
It's about what you see. And i don't agree about your African connexions. But I like your idea of the British colonial links between Sudan and India. In general, Jim, you stay my main source of inspiration on this forum!
Indian or European blade, I'll take it, but I need evidences...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

First, it's good to laugh, a lot of people take it too seriously. I don't.
In fact, I don't care if it's a flower or a cross. I just wrote and drawn that the motive is different from the one that you described. Apparently you didn't notice my comments and drawings (1 point each).
It's about what you see. And i don't agree about your African connexions. But I like your idea of the British colonial links between Sudan and India. In general, Jim, you stay my main source of inspiration on this forum!
Indian or European blade, I'll take it, but I need evidences...

Thank you Kubur, clearly I did misunderstand, and absolutely right, it is good to maintain a good perspective through humor and patience as these complicated matters are difficult enough to sort through.
Having noted that, thank you for the compliment as well, though quite honestly I am no guru and my 'knowledge' is simply the cumulation of the hours I spend sorting through notes and references before I write.

You are exactly right to expect evidence, the mark of a sound researcher. Also, it is important to often alter opinions and views on subjects as that becomes available, that is if what is presented is viable or compelling, if not positively resounding.
That is the reason for our forums, to discuss and share information and work together in finding resolutions. As Marius has well noted, the absolute answers may not be found....YET....but we never stop trying!

As seen with the excellent entries by Jens with views of this important four petal flower, now that is compelling!!!
There are most certainly NO flowers like that growing in the Sahara!
Therefore, it would seem likely such a design would have diffused FROM Indian to the African sphere, which as earlier noted, is profoundly recognized with weapon forms as well as instances of blades etc.

As Jens also notes, he is yet unconvinced of this blade being European, and I also must note that my theory on that is surely not yet firm. The only thing on the blade which leads me toward European origin is the notable outlining of the sides of the blade, which if I recall was occasioned on certain blades of Spanish and Italian origin. This would be in line with the notes on 'firangi' (Elgood, 2004, p.245), which notes the volume of blades in India on katars in Tanjore (usually cut down of course) bearing the names from Italy, Portugal, German and England. Obviously Spanish would also be present but blades were often of the markets for other countries.

There are numbers of other references concerning the use of 'foreign' blades in India, even before the opening of Portuguese sea routes in the early 16th century (narratives dating pre 1507) (Elgood, 2004, p39).

On p.12, Elgood notes the volume of foreign goods sought and the enthusiastic adoption of European steel blades by Hindus, then mounted in local hilts. In fact, it is noted that in these early times arms were included in the volumes of goods from Venice to India. The numbers of 16th and 17th century blades present in a wide scope of decorated hilts varying in style suggest according to Elgood, that they had clearly been in use in India for some time and cannot be from a single shipment or victory.
Here, I would suggest that the option of surplus or worn blades from Europe might well have been exported, much as with the post crusades swords out of Malta into North Africa.

Which brings me to the flower/cross dilemma.
Actually when I first saw these floral designs on takouba hilts, I actually first saw the Maltese cross!!!! That was years ago, and I recall thinking that perhaps these were a native allusion to the cross pattee known to have been used by the crusaders. One of the longest lived notions of European writers was that the swords of the natives WERE the swords of the crusaders!
Actually the earliest volume of broadswords coming into Africa via the ports and entrepots of the littoral from Tunisia to Algeria was from Malta, which was an interim port carrying surplus goods from Europe and trade ports in those networks.

Later I saw the figure as a four petal flower, and regarded this symbol as another means of conveying the key device in Saharan, and much of these native folk traditions and religions as representing the four cardinal directions in an ecumenical sense.

Admittedly, at that point the possibility of connection to India had not yet been considered.
So Kubur, thank you for the drawings and perspective, and as always, Jens for your ever keen insights into the mysteries of Indian arms.

I wanted to write on some of the other aspects, but this treatise has turned into another Indian epic already!!! So many talking points and had to write to get them together, so thank you for those of you with the endurance to read this.