16th century halberd; origin??

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=halberd where an identically stamped weapon is at #1.

Brilliant Ibrahiim!!!
Following the links leads to the original source of this halberd, apparently one of a pair several months ago discussed on other forums. While not 'exact', it is compellingly like the mark of a Pankraz Taller, a blacksmith for the Styrian armory in Graz c. 1575-1612. The mark is the same 'X' in cartouche with two 'dots' (?)
It seems halberds had these stamped cartouches in the same location on rear blade 16th-into 17th.
While markings sources I checked revealed no others like this, nor mention of Taller (reference was "Euro Journal Heft" 1/2000 in article Katharina Ulbrich discussing blacksmiths in this armory). ....I did find another crossed lines mark with added lines geometrically configured. Also another cartouche with initials HW as shown in post here and another circular found elsewhere.These all on halberds late 16th.

In Wallace Coll. (Mann, 1962, A953, p. 452) is a similarly bladed halberd also with brass rosettes, but highly decorated, no markings, German and dated 1593 with motif to Archduke Ernst (1553-1595).

[fernando]

Allow me to show my surprise, Jim.
The differences between the marks of both examples are rather visible. While the one from the link has the unequivocal mark of Pankraz Taller, with its shape of a shield and X cross interior with dots, the mark of the one in discussion has the shape of a square and, instead of dots, has an extra line departing from the X cross center. I guess such details could not be result of bad striking and constitute differences that enable us to establish that the two marks belong to different smiths.
But then, i might be wrong and am ready to stand corrected.


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[fernando]

This is how Craig Johnson at MyArmoury concluded that the mark in my Styrian halberd was that of Pankraz Taller, after i had a comment from Reinhart Dittrich from Landeszeughaus Graz suggesting (only suggesting) so.
Needless to say that, before Craig's excelent demonstration, i had strong doubts such assumption.

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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Allow me to show my surprise, Jim.
The differences between the marks of both examples are rather visible. While the one from the link has the unequivocal mark of Pankraz Taller, with its shape of a shield and X cross interior with dots, the mark of the one in discussion has the shape of a square and, instead of dots, has an extra line departing from the X cross center. I guess such details could not be result of bad striking and constitute differences that enable us to establish that the two marks belong to different smiths.
But then, i might be wrong and am ready to stand corrected.


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Not at all Fernando, actually you are entirely correct, the marks while 'similar' are different, however the gestalt and positioning of these marks are compellingly close in these cases.
I was unable to find marks of Taller in any of my resources on markings, and wondered if perhaps being a 'blacksmith' within the auspices of the armoury might have precluded the usual markings protocols associated with guilds etc in the broader scope of production.

Also, I was wondering if these variations in the 'X' inside either square or shield type cartouche might reflect changes or possibly subtle indicators having to do with production record keeping or the like. It seems that often markings of the same 'type' occur in odd or different configurations or combinations, such as seen with 'sickle marks' and others like the familiar 'kings heads'.

[Zauberflöte]

I'm impressed by your observations gentlemen, many thanks so far.

So Austrian origin (or German such as HH claims) is a safe bet?

Best.

F.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Zauberflöte

I'm impressed by your observations gentlemen, many thanks so far.

So Austrian origin (or German such as HH claims) is a safe bet?

Best.

F.

As once pointed out to me by a well respected arms author, weapons have few, if any, geographic boundaries. In most of the markings references I checked, halberd markings in many cases had double captions German/Austrian and of course Swiss fell into similar umbrella.
Naturally if the maker can be positively identified we can presume at least that part of the weapon can be attributed accordingly. Often components were exchanged across borders, as were refurbishings during working life.

A very nice halberd example in any case!

[CSinTX]

I didnt want to post until today and draw attention to an item the OP might be bidding on. See the auction from today June 29th, 2016, Thomas Del Mar, Lot 160 for a very similar example.

In my opinion, the style is so similar to the other known Styrian builds that they could easily be placed together.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As once pointed out to me by a well respected arms author, weapons have few, if any, geographic boundaries. In most of the markings references I checked, halberd markings in many cases had double captions German/Austrian and of course Swiss fell into similar umbrella.
Naturally if the maker can be positively identified we can presume at least that part of the weapon can be attributed accordingly. Often components were exchanged across borders, as were refurbishings during working life.

A very nice halberd example in any case!

Thank you Jim, Whilst not perhaps 100% exact it is easy to suggest that these are the same makers mark... however, I am always ready to listen to other conclusions and have learned a lot already in tracing these weapons... a far cry from my usual haunts of Arabian and Indian weapons.

[Zauberflöte]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As once pointed out to me by a well respected arms author, weapons have few, if any, geographic boundaries. In most of the markings references I checked, halberd markings in many cases had double captions German/Austrian and of course Swiss fell into similar umbrella.
Naturally if the maker can be positively identified we can presume at least that part of the weapon can be attributed accordingly. Often components were exchanged across borders, as were refurbishings during working life.

A very nice halberd example in any case!

Thank you!

[fernando]

Perhaps the only halberd typology claimed to be exclusive of one only region (Switzerland) is the "Sempach", due to its particular shape. It was so named after the battle of Sempach (1386). This early style resurged in the late XVI century and again in the late XVII century by commission to Lamprecht Koller, although specialists (George A. Snook) remind us that this 'late' version only resembles the original, contrary to general belief.
I am not sure where precisely my example falls, on what touches a date, even when i compare its maker's mark with a set quoted to be from the mid XV century.

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