Rapier or Riding Sword?

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2016, 10:27 PM

Excellent follow up with these additional details on the Moors heads Ibrahiim, thank you!

I have found another instance of a rapier c. 1600 with the IAHANNI name in the fuller, the stylized 'anchor' and the Moors head, though single.
In this example with double fullers, the IAHANNI name paralleled in the two fullers.

It is interesting that this single Moors head, though facing differently does seem to have a crown but hard to discern. It is tempting to consider that perhaps the IAHANNI name is relating to the IOHANNES name (of Wundes) which indeed used the three Kings heads in the triple pattern. With the Moors head proclivity in what we may consider Bavarian or Styrian centers and their influence by Italian styles as well as Solingen markings, maybe these influences filtered together here with these rapiers and arming swords, dusagges c. 1590s- 1610 ??

It is further interesting to discover that the Moor or Blackamoor head in heraldry in Europe as well it seems with these markings, rather than representing Moors conquered in battle (an old holding) these represent the high standing in Catholic religious history in many cases.
Again , these weapons give us great insight into historical perspective!!!

ulfberth · 28th January 2016, 01:11 PM

Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head.
Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head.
Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ?
In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI

kind regards

Ulfberth

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th January 2016, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head.
Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head.
Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ?
In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI

kind regards

Ulfberth

Salaams Ulfberth ... If I may quote #13 above "Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown". I am however right out of my depth on this subject and invite Forum support !!

Jim, Very interesting on the IAHANNI Wundes which I will have to look at on your blade marks forum site...!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2016, 05:31 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances.
Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads.
I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style.

Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking!

It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example.

Best regards
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th January 2016, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahiim,
Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances.
Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads.
I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style.

Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking!

It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example.

Best regards
Jim

Salaams Jim, Just fresh from your blade marks and urge others to look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks in particular # 106 #119 #110 and the more important #226 where the Wundes famous crowns are shown as often multiple on a blade.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

iskender · 30th January 2016, 01:15 PM

first :townseal of Cornol in the juramountains in switzerland where i have my holiday home. then a rapier out of my collection most likely johannes wundes the elder. stamped with a Ritterhelm, his name written wrong like on most of his blades his name is a mess.in these times maybe a priest or a lawyer etc.where able to write .So in this case IOHANNIS means JOHANNES . his surname Wundes see for yourself! the blade of him in the MET. NEW YORK is also original ! salamaleikum iskender

Cathey · 31st January 2016, 12:03 AM

Hi Guys

I managed to flip the image of the mark Jim provided and place it in a table next to mine. Now they are both facing the same way they certainly appear to have much in common.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

ulfberth · 31st January 2016, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

first :townseal of Cornol in the juramountains in switzerland where i have my holiday home. then a rapier out of my collection most likely johannes wundes the elder. stamped with a Ritterhelm, his name written wrong like on most of his blades his name is a mess.in these times maybe a priest or a lawyer etc.where able to write .So in this case IOHANNIS means JOHANNES . his surname Wundes see for yourself! the blade of him in the MET. NEW YORK is also original ! salamaleikum iskender

That is a very nice rapier Iskender !
Its shape proportions, the design and the fullers....

kind regards

Ulfberth

30th January 2016, 01:15 PM	#6
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	seals and stamps first :townseal of Cornol in the juramountains in switzerland where i have my holiday home. then a rapier out of my collection most likely johannes wundes the elder. stamped with a Ritterhelm, his name written wrong like on most of his blades his name is a mess.in these times maybe a priest or a lawyer etc.where able to write .So in this case IOHANNIS means JOHANNES . his surname Wundes see for yourself! the blade of him in the MET. NEW YORK is also original ! salamaleikum iskender Attached Images

31st January 2016, 12:03 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Comparisum of Marks Hi Guys I managed to flip the image of the mark Jim provided and place it in a table next to mine. Now they are both facing the same way they certainly appear to have much in common. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

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27th January 2016, 10:27 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Excellent follow up with these additional details on the Moors heads Ibrahiim, thank you! I have found another instance of a rapier c. 1600 with the IAHANNI name in the fuller, the stylized 'anchor' and the Moors head, though single. In this example with double fullers, the IAHANNI name paralleled in the two fullers. It is interesting that this single Moors head, though facing differently does seem to have a crown but hard to discern. It is tempting to consider that perhaps the IAHANNI name is relating to the IOHANNES name (of Wundes) which indeed used the three Kings heads in the triple pattern. With the Moors head proclivity in what we may consider Bavarian or Styrian centers and their influence by Italian styles as well as Solingen markings, maybe these influences filtered together here with these rapiers and arming swords, dusagges c. 1590s- 1610 ?? It is further interesting to discover that the Moor or Blackamoor head in heraldry in Europe as well it seems with these markings, rather than representing Moors conquered in battle (an old holding) these represent the high standing in Catholic religious history in many cases. Again , these weapons give us great insight into historical perspective!!! Attached Images

28th January 2016, 01:11 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head. Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head. Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ? In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

28th January 2016, 05:31 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	Hi Ibrahiim, Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances. Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads. I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style. Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking! It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example. Best regards Jim